Stopping & Spinning

[sassy]

Disclaimer- this is not about my horse because, if it was, I would have gotten rid of him a looong time ago.

Assuming pain isn’t an issue, how do you deal with a horse that will randomly stop and spin? Think cantering down a line, not spooking at anything, not trying to stop at the jump, horse seems quiet, and then just slams on the brakes and dumps you? I recently rode an amateur horse with this trick and it definitely worried me. It didn’t try it with me but apparently “just does it” once in a blue moon. Otherwise seems to be a lovely animal… Does it come down to just being confident and keeping the attention? I think this is a horse that definitely takes advantage of a less confident, less aware rider and will “get your number” so to speak.

I am a pretty confident rider and have been riding and showing for almost my whole life. But, I’m also not a a professional and I’m 25 now so have definitely lost some of my fearlessness.

[Halternatively]

I think if you have the choice, you don’t deal with this horse. It’s hard to say how or why it picked up this habit, but I’d think it’s a very, very difficult one to break. Even if it is a pain response and you can find and eliminate the pain source, you may not be able to eliminate the habit the horse has developed. I’d pass on this horse and/or the expectation of changing it.

[HungarianHippo]

Yes, I think a confident and attentive rider should be able to sense he’s developing a mood to duck & spin-- I am sure that the horse gives warning signals that an inexperienced or distracted rider just isn’t picking up. Or they do feel he’s getting squirrely and the gut-level response is to kinda freeze up with fear. But even if the behavior is something a more solid rider can predict and head off, that’s not a horse I want to own. There are lots of really nice horses out there that aren’t constantly looking to make you a lawn dart.

[Pokerface]

Personally, I wouldn’t ride one that did that if I could avoid it. I’m closer to 40 than I care to admit and bouncing is even less fun than it used to be. That said, if I WERE to ride a horse like that, I would ride with spurs and be a bit more defensive. The minute I suspected he might be thinking of doing it, I would really push him forward and be prepared for him to have an opinion about it.

Or you could just ride Yogi and relax and have fun ;).

[sassy]

@Pokerface

Personally, I wouldn’t ride one that did that if I could avoid it. I’m closer to 40 than I care to admit and bouncing is even less fun than it used to be. That said, if I WERE to ride a horse like that, I would ride with spurs and be a bit more defensive. The minute I suspected he might be thinking of doing it, I would really push him forward and be prepared for him to have an opinion about it.

Or you could just ride Yogi and relax and have fun ;).

Haha because Yogi is perfect, he would never think of doing such a thing! I was actually sitting on him when this horse dumped its person and I was asked to get on it because its rider was understandably shaken up (and there was no pro there). It was okay for me, but certainly not a ride I particularly enjoyed because of what I just watched it do…Oh and it’s significantly larger than Yogi :eek:

[society]

I have a horse like that who spooks out of nowhere violently like an electric shock. He has dumped me hard just cantering a circle or walking around a corner. I have retired him and given up several times. My guy has received diagnostics and treatments for PSSM, ulcers, eye pain, back pain, neck pain, and everything else you read on the internet. He has gone though despook training and been to several vets.
And then I realized he always reaches to rub his nose vigorously during or after a ride. No abnormal head shaking or photic sensitization signs, but worse with wind and cold weather. He is currently being treated for trigeminal neuritis with acupuncture and a nose net and there is a huge difference in his behavior all around. You might look into that because I’m pretty sure my horse was having pain due to the neuritis that caused his sudden spook, stop, and spin. A nose net is a good place to start, my horse started moaning in happiness and relaxation the first time I used it.

[Scribbler]

Some horses will pull this kind of stunt on some riders, but not if they know the rider has them firmly between hand and leg. Some riders will come off and some won’t.

A horse like this needs to be ridden by someone who can ensure that even if he stops, trying to spin is impossible. That means someone with a super secure seat. Typically these horses stop suddenly and tip their riders forward so the rider loses effective rein control, and then ducks and spins before the rider regains balance and effectiveness. The rider is off balance before the spin.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹In other words, not for your typical lower level ammie.

There could well be some pain issue there, but if it’s not your horse you can’t order the vet workup.

I knew a mare who did this and it turned out to be impacted canine teeth, or at least that was part of the puzzle. She wasn’t diagnosed until her mid teens and I have no idea if the oral surgery fixed this long standing behaviour problem. She did break one owners hip doing this.

[Renn_aissance]

If it were my horse, I’d go the full veterinary workup route and pay a lot of attention to the circumstances under which it pulled this stunt, writing down the details to cross-reference the next time it happened.

If no veterinary reason could be found, I would keep that level of detail going to collect additional reasons I could address or mitigate, but I would not trust that horse and so I wouldn’t want to own it. Health insurance is expensive. :eek: Then it’s tough because you’d also have to sell it with full disclosure and it would have to be a winning freak for it to appeal to someone.

[sassy]

@Scribbler

Some horses will pull this kind of stunt on some riders, but not if they know the rider has them firmly between hand and leg. Some riders will come off and some won’t.

A horse like this needs to be ridden by someone who can ensure that even if he stops, trying to spin is impossible. That means someone with a super secure seat. Typically these horses stop suddenly and tip their riders forward so the rider loses effective rein control, and then ducks and spins before the rider regains balance and effectiveness. The rider is off balance before the spin.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹In other words, not for your typical lower level ammie.

There could well be some pain issue there, but if it’s not your horse you can’t order the vet workup.

I knew a mare who did this and it turned out to be impacted canine teeth, or at least that was part of the puzzle. She wasn’t diagnosed until her mid teens and I have no idea if the oral surgery fixed this long standing behaviour problem. She did break one owners hip doing this.

I think this hits the nail on the head for this horse. I believe it went from doing a 3’3/3’6 job to being a glorified pre adult horse with a lower level amateur (who is wonderful and still loves the horse, lol). It is in a very structured program and gets multiple pro rides and shows with the pro as much as it can to keep it going.

I didn’t enjoy it because I felt like I constantly had to keep it bent in or otherwise keep its brain occupied while also spurring it forward so it couldn’t try anything. I didn’t feel comfortable getting up in a half seat and letting it lope around which is how I usually prefer to ride.

Horses are frustrating. It’s not a green horse, it was previously ridden by an amateur, and all it needs to do is bop around a 2’6 course :uhoh:

[sassy]

@Renn/aissance

If it were my horse, I’d go the full veterinary workup route and pay a lot of attention to the circumstances under which it pulled this stunt, writing down the details to cross-reference the next time it happened.

If no veterinary reason could be found, I would keep that level of detail going to collect additional reasons I could address or mitigate, but I would not trust that horse and so I wouldn’t want to own it. Health insurance is expensive. :eek: Then it’s tough because you’d also have to sell it with full disclosure and it would have to be a winning freak for it to appeal to someone.

It’s not my horse and I don’t know a ton about its history BUT I do know that this owner spares no expense and the horse likely has received multiple work ups. I’m sure it gets injections done as necessary and also gets all the massage and PEMF crap. I am leaning towards it being a little too smart/bored with this job and taking advantage of its person.

[Scribbler]

@sassy

I think this hits the nail on the head for this horse. I believe it went from doing a 3’3/3’6 job to being a glorified pre adult horse with a lower level amateur (who is wonderful and still loves the horse, lol). It is in a very structured program and gets multiple pro rides and shows with the pro as much as it can to keep it going.

I didn’t enjoy it because I felt like I constantly had to keep it bent in or otherwise keep its brain occupied while also spurring it forward so it couldn’t try anything. I didn’t feel comfortable getting up in a half seat and letting it lope around which is how I usually prefer to ride.

Horses are frustrating. It’s not a green horse, it was previously ridden by an amateur, and all it needs to do is bop around a 2’6 course :uhoh:

Ah. Yes. A horse with some behaviour quirks that is really a “pro ride” or “an ammie with pro skills” ride. Stepping down to be a low level ammie horse. But isn’t safe for a low level ammie.

Horse could be objecting to almost anything in the low level ammies riding.

Unfortunately, if the owner has come off more than once from this behaviour they really need to sell and buy a suitable horse. They aren’t going to develop the confidence and balance needed to prevent a dirty stop by riding a dirty stopper and adopting a defensive posture.

This is going to end badly. Either owner will break bones or lose their confidence and stop riding.

Don’t get on this horse again and don’t get too invested in this situation.

[sassy]

@Scribbler

Ah. Yes. A horse with some behaviour quirks that is really a “pro ride” or “an ammie with pro skills” ride. Stepping down to be a low level ammie horse. But isn’t safe for a low level ammie.

Horse could be objecting to almost anything in the low level ammies riding.

Unfortunately, if the owner has come off more than once from this behaviour they really need to sell and buy a suitable horse. They aren’t going to develop the confidence and balance needed to prevent a dirty stop by riding a dirty stopper and adopting a defensive posture.

This is going to end badly. Either owner will break bones or lose their confidence and stop riding.

Don’t get on this horse again and don’t get too invested in this situation.

It just boggles my mind how someone who is significantly older than I am, less experienced, and truly just wants to do this for fun could enjoy riding this horse. I think by most peoples’ standards I’m a fairly competent rider. I did the 3’3-3’6 hunters for a while on my horse with his own little quirks. But I don’t have much patience for anything in the realm of dirty. Quirky but a sweet horse, or a horse with some confidence issues- fine, I can deal with it. Dirty, wants me off and wants to take advantage of me- no thanks.

Apparently in over a year it’s only done this twice and is otherwise allgedly perfect. I am really fond of the horse’s owner and have known her for years. But yeah- definitely not making any plans to sit on it again.

[Scribbler]

@sassy

It just boggles my mind how someone who is significantly older than I am, less experienced, and truly just wants to do this for fun could enjoy riding this horse. I think by most peoples’ standards I’m a fairly competent rider. I did the 3’3-3’6 hunters for a while on my horse with his own little quirks. But I don’t have much patience for anything in the realm of dirty. Quirky but a sweet horse, or a horse with some confidence issues- fine, I can deal with it. Dirty, wants me off and wants to take advantage of me- no thanks.

Apparently in over a year it’s only done this twice and is otherwise allgedly perfect. I am really fond of the horse’s owner and have known her for years. But yeah- definitely not making any plans to sit on it again.

Often beginners don’t know what they don’t know. Sometimes they buy very green horses because no horse goes well for them, even lesson horses refuse cues, so they can’t really judge the difference. Sometimes they buy more horse than they need, because they think well, trained to a higher level and costs more money must be better and safer, like buying a BMW over a 10 year old Kia. But sometimes you need the Kia horse. And often if they are inexperienced every horse makes them nervous, and they can’t use their state of nerves as a reliable guide to what they should and shouldn’t be riding because even the quietest lesson horse makes them anxious.

Anyhow, might be an interesting story if you could get the truth as to why this horse was downgraded to this rider. Did he start to have pain at the higher levels, and was sold to step down? Did he have such a dirty stop at the higher levels that he hurt his rider? And what happens when the pro rides? Does the horse every spin with the pro, or unseat the pro?

You only have to come off a dirty stopper once to break your hip. Especially when you are older.

[Renn_aissance]

@sassy

It’s not my horse and I don’t know a ton about its history BUT I do know that this owner spares no expense and the horse likely has received multiple work ups. I’m sure it gets injections done as necessary and also gets all the massage and PEMF crap. I am leaning towards it being a little too smart/bored with this job and taking advantage of its person.

I’ve ridden that kind. Often in sub-14.2.

Does it do this with the pro? Has it ever had a non-structured life, and did it do the same thing there, too? Sometimes I think the best thing we can do with a horse who’s discovered a good trick like this- if vet issues have been ruled out and it really looks like a good trick- is go ride it in the back field for awhile and take all that structure and pressure away and see what happens.

I would suggest, meaning nothing against the middle-aged amateur suitable for a 2’6" horse, that the average middle-aged amateur suitable for a 2’6" horse does not wish to go out in the back 40 and chase deer, and probably shouldn’t on a horse that isn’t confirmed broke outside the ring, which complicates this whole situation. This is why you keep some good-riding juniors in the barn… they bounce.

(I remain eternally grateful to the middle-aged amateurs suitable for a 2’6" horse who let my junior self ride their very nice horses on those days those horses were feeling a bit spicier than the ammies preferred.)

[GoodTimes]

Twice over the course of a year really wouldn’t bother me. I wouldn’t even call it a habit.
Are there safer horses out there? Sure. But if the owner wants to keep the horse than it’s something that they need to manage with the help of a pro. If you aren’t comfortable riding the horse than just say no.

[Backstage]

@GoodTimes

Twice over the course of a year really wouldn’t bother me. I wouldn’t even call it a habit.
Are there safer horses out there? Sure. But if the owner wants to keep the horse than it’s something that they need to manage with the help of a pro. If you aren’t comfortable riding the horse than just say no.

I agree. Twice over a year really doesn’t strike me as that concerning. And are they 100% sure it wasn’t a spook at something random? It wouldn’t be uncommon for an amateur rider to miss the signs a spook was coming, leaving the horse feeling unsupported and making the decision to turn and leave.

Ultimately, they aren’t robots and while I would still be asking questions, and perhaps having the vet out, I wouldn’t be overly concerned if the horse has otherwise been packing around his amateur rider and doing his job.

[endlessclimb]

Did lighting have anything to do with this? A reflection off something that set him off? Twice in a year is so random - long enough between episodes that the rider is caught completely off guard. Annoying, but not aimed at the horse, more towards the situation.

[grandprixer]

Twice in a year doesn’t seem like a big “habit” to me, but if all avenues have been explored and there’s nothing to blame on a spook then I would yeet the horse out of my barn. Like someone else said, I don’t mid green/fresh shenanigans, but dirty or malicious behavior is a hard stop.

My own horse nearly did this to me in a dressage test. It was the end of the day, all the horses had been halting at X, so the dirt was piled up funny. Across the diagonal he took one look and did a lovely pirouette as fast as he could out of the arena. If I hadn’t already been sitting back and deep I would’ve eaten it.

[sassy]

I don’t know. Maybe I’ve been lucky with some good horses throughout the years. Can’t say any of my horses have ever pulled this trick. something this dirty (especially for an older adult) I wouldn’t put up with. I watched the whole thing. Couldn’t find any explanation/cause or anything spooky. And I am someone who owns a dumblood that tends to find random things to spook at My horse cantered down the same line the horse stopped & spun in the middle of with no issue. I understand they’re not robots and I can deal with some spooks here and there, but spinning like this with the goal to eject the rider isn’t my cup of tea. Rider hit the ground so hard I thought I was going to have to call 911. No thanks.

[Pennywell_Bay]

One of my horses has a similar quirk. Only over fences. And - never not ever over true “hunter” non colored fences. Fine with brush, roll tops, any rail with color is a trigger. We have done everything- focusing on the eyes.

I gave up jumping her, she needed a pro school then I could jump her. She loves dressage and is happy. Lately- my kid has been quite successful on the mare over fences. Mare happily boos around, she took her to WEC and no pro ride was needed.

For me- life was too short to worry about getting dumped. Plus- I want the horse to like her job. She and my daughter seems to be a better fit.

personally- I want the horse I’m on to be relatively reliable and me not have to worry she’s going to stop and spin- over a jump she’s seen 100 times. I also want the horse to love it’s job. This horse loves the dressage arena and seems to be happy with the child. I went out and bought myself one that I can go back and worry about my distances :)!