Straightness Problems Going to the Right -- Sleuthing anyone?

[brennab]

I have a mare who naturally, on her own, or in the round pen without me on top, tends to move like a spazzy ferret-giraffe, more or less. The faster she moves, the quicker steps she takes, and the more her head comes and she gets nervous. She’s always been like that, since she was a late two-year old. Now she’ll be five in May.

Through trying to ride her well, I think I have helped her. She is not ewe-necked, and the muscling isn’t even thicker on the underside of her neck. I study the Vaquero tradition and do my best to ride well and stay out of her way. I’ve tried to ride her correctly, and she is building a topline.

However, the problem under saddle is stumping me. To the left, she does fairly well. She’ll roll into a canter quite easily, and she’ll move out pretty well with minimal aiding from me.

But to the right it’s a different story. For almost a year, I had a saddle that finally proved to not fit at all. She wouldn’t canter either to the left, and was pinning her ears when I’d dismount. Then, a week ago, I got a new saddle that seems to fit fairly well. It’s a hair wide, but it’s a wade and I’ve paired it with a CorrecTor pad to shim the bar angle. The bars slightly are too wide at the base.

Anyway, to the right when I got this saddle last week she cantered a few times. That was great! I rode her six times in a row to test the saddle. That might have been a bit much, but I’ve watched as in the last couple days her canter has gotten worse to the right again. Today it was really hard to get her to move straight at all to the right, and she kept wanting to curl to the right and go in the middle – something she’s done for several months now. I did get her to canter in the right lead a few times, but at one point I pushed a little too hard and got a crowhop. That’s never happened before.

Numerous people have said the saddle looks like it fits pretty well, if not a tad wide. I’m going to have the chiro out. I also know I tend to sit a little too much to my right. An impressions pad test revealed that I sit so that I create a pressure point on the left side. So, that is probably it!! Or part of it.

Sorry for all the info. I’m just trying to get it out there to see where I should start for fixing things.

I do take video lessons with my mentor in Nevada, and I have been riding for almost 20 years (although I know that doesn’t meant I don’t have issues).

My current plan is to keep the wade saddle (I have two weeks left to test it before I lose my money), give her a few days off, and call the equine chiropractor.

Thanks for staying with me! Hope this all made sense.

[brennab]

I will say the dismounting now with the wade saddle is also better. No ear-pinning or tossing her head.

[Fillabeana]

OK, first, you will have to make the distinction between the ANGLE being too wide, or the gullet width being too wide.
Think of the angle like your roof- in snow country, it has to be steep so the snow doesn’t build up. That’s a steep angle. In Southern climates, it almost never snows, so you only need a tiny pitch so the rain runs off. That’s a pretty flat angle.

The gullet width is the space between the bars. I think of it as a sort of monitor roof- how wide is the center section?
Narrower, like a Welsh Pony who is round, but his shoulders aren’t too far apart at the top):
https://www.google.com/search?q=monitor+roof&client=firefox-a&hs=LfZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&imgil=xMp45bv8niSY9M%3A%3Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcT93s2cvIJBPWB-VgfiCfv1TjhQe-cs1-r-RtRjdmUsudfTeos1-g%3B550%3B450%3B2l7K4dUGiINMOM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgreendesigncollective.com%252Fgreen%252Fcooling.html&source=iu&usg=__ARQr8Zp4BJhj1JS5uVXVE5Mgkqo%3D&sa=X&ei=_0MGU53FF7OqyQGypYDABw&ved=0CDAQ9QEwAg&biw=1600&bih=744
Wider (like a draft horse whose shoulders are far apart at the top):
https://www.google.com/search?q=monitor+roof&client=firefox-a&hs=t0E&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&imgil=Nr87Md4JcRCjlM%3A%3Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRGr5Z6r8276r5fC20uY5XhtIUkIDTgoBeVlWpzPot9g58YluFbKw%3B1000%3B750%3BXApmf06QLm9biM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.hansenpolebuildings.com%252Fbuildingstyles%252Fmonitor-buildings.htm&source=iu&usg=__NnYF4Z-mLTNfP2JffufJv7QbuoI%3D&sa=X&ei=NEQGU_SCIsfayAHR_YHQAQ&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAQ&biw=1600&bih=744

So, having determined that my saddle had good (wide/flat to match the round well-sprung ribs and low withers) bar angles, but too much gullet width:
I have had success with helping saddle fit using a Correc-tor pad.
Here’s how it worked…
The horse (two full sisters, actually) are very round, beer-keg, no withers cutting-horse bred AQHA mares.
The saddle is wide at the gullet, and has a flat angle to the bars. It also unfortunately has ‘Arizona bars’ so there is no relief where the stirrup leathers go around the bars.
The ANGLE of the bars (like the pitch of your roof) was correct.
The WIDTH of the gullet (the space between the top of the bars) was actually TOO wide.
I use a navajo pad and a correct-or pad with only the front shims. I did NOT use the rear shims at all.
That corrected for the horses downhill conformation, and for the lack of space at the stirrup leather.

It worked, because the bar angle was correct, and because the gullet (between-the-bars) width needed filling in.

I tried padding or shimming without the correct-or pad, and it was never stable enough for a long ride or two. The correct-or was really expensive…and it looks like you can do the same thing, in other ways, but it didn’t work for me. I would try a different brand of pocketed pad, with shims, for sure though. I do have a Diamond 1" wool pad with shims and pockets, but that was way too thick (1", then a shim) for my round AQHA mares.

[Fillabeana]

Now, about the mare being not straight:
Dr. Deb Bennett has written this about straight horses, she calls it ‘Lessons from Woody’:
http://www.equinestudies.org/lessons_from_woody_2008/lessons_from_woody_2008_pdf1.pdf

It can take a very long time to understand all of what is going on with how a horse steers himself and balances himself, right OR wrong.
It can also seem like, ‘this is backwards from what I was taught’ from quality dressage instructors. But what I have found, is that when a horse feels ‘right’…he’s right, no matter how you describe it. And ‘Woody’ gets to the very base of how to get a horse to carry himself ‘right’.

When a horse goes around a circle to the right, in order to stay in balance, he must shift his body weight to his outside legs, let his ribcage curve as much as it can/should to match the track, and step (or ‘untrack’) his hindquarters to the outside of the circle.
Quality dressage instructors talk about using your inside leg to get the horse to bend…so far, so good- your horse needs to bend his ribcage.

But then, they tell you to put your outside leg back so the horse doesn’t swing his haunches to the outside. If you watch carefully, a properly bending, balanced dressage horse IS ABSOLUTELY untracking his hindquarters to the outside of the circle with every step- it’s the simple physics of how a horse’s body must negotiate the circle if he’s to use himself properly.

So, I’d venture a guess that when your mare picks her head up and moves her feet really fast when asked to turn right, it is because she does not know how to shift her weight to the left, and to untrack her haunches toward the left.

It’s much like putting a pencil in your left hand (if you’re right-handed) and asking you to sign your name…it’s going to be uncomfortable and illegible, and it will need practice to come out nicely.

That is pretty much why the ‘masters’ like Ray Hunt spent a lot of time moving the haunches over- it is the very basis of getting a horse balanced in a turn, into the outside rein (so you can neck rein/ride one-handed), and engaged. Those who don’t really understand what is going on will call it ‘disengaging the hindquarters’ (though some people who do understand, might call it that).

There is a place for ‘popping his hindquarters out of gear’, often to regain control of a horse’s mind and keep him from running off with you, but lots of people don’t really understand how to move the hind end laterally in order to engage and balance the horse.

[Fillabeana]

Oh, and, to tie it all together…
An unbalanced horse, even in a saddle that fits reasonably, can create pressure points or rubs from the saddle.

It’s a little bit like having a person wearing a backpacking pack, a big, heavy one with straps as well as a lumbar support.
Assuming you match the pack properly with the size of the person so the straps are the right length and the lumbar support is across the lumbar area, the person can get rubs on one shoulder, or the lumbar support, if they are twisting their body or walking with funny posture. The backpack fits, but the PERSON is twisting and causing sores.

In the same way, a horse that twists itself or contracts it’s back muscles can create pressure points or saddle sores with a saddle that SHOULD fit the horse. It isn’t a saddle fit problem, but rather a horse problem.

This is where a lot of people get frustrated and confused about saddle fit, lameness, soreness, or unevenness, and horses ‘saying’ unequivocally that they do NOT like their saddle. A chiropractor can absolutely be of help, but if he has to keep coming back every month or 6 weeks for the same ‘problem’, he is alleviating symptoms rather than helping at the root of the problem.

These are not easy fixes, with excellent help they can end up resolving. But in my experience, it can take two or three years before a person gets an accurate ability to help the horse truly carry himself well. And, you may need help from vet/sports medicine or a chiropractor to un-knot the horse before he can begin to learn to carry himself well.

[Pocket_Pony]

Fillabeana, can you tell us more about the Corrector pad? Why did you get it, what kind of setup do you use and why, what are the materials/quality like, etc.? I’ve been looking at them off and on for a while now.

[froglander]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7441732]
Fillabeana, can you tell us more about the Corrector pad? Why did you get it, what kind of setup do you use and why, what are the materials/quality like, etc.? I’ve been looking at them off and on for a while now.[/QUOTE]

It’s really too bad the website for those pads is so insane!

What about the CSI pads? I tried one once, and liked it, but it was too thick so I ended up sending it back (they offer a 30 day trial).

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7441739]
It’s really too bad the website for those pads is so insane![/QUOTE]

Definitely seems like a bit of a nutter.

[Fillabeana]

Fillabeana, can you tell us more about the Corrector pad? Why did you get it, what kind of setup do you use and why, what are the materials/quality like, etc.?

OK, first, I got it to address the problems I was having with my very round mares, the Arizona bars on the trees causing dry/white spot damage.
At the time, I had tried saddle after saddle and couldn’t get anything that seemed right. In addition to the western saddles, I had also tried a Collegiate convertible jumping saddle that, with its widest gullet, still did not fit well.

The Correct-or pad helped get the fit much closer, in the realm of Good Fit- but I didn’t understand the whys or hows at the time: That the saddles that I had, had the angles close but the gullet/space between the bars was too wide (see Dave Genadek’s diagram- it was a classic downhill horse, too wide bars problem), and that the stirrup leathers were adding to the problem.

As above, I shimmed the front only: the angles did not need to change but the front of the saddle needed to come up to make it sit level, and also to give clearance for the stirrup leathers.

As for materials and quality, they are good; the shims are well made and shaped appropriately and the pad has stood up nicely. I’ve never had it directly on the horse’s back, I usually use a wool navajo pad.

I think the pads are WAY expensive. I would imagine the maker has a patent on it, but I think the thing would, with competition, sell for $75 to $100 if there were no patent infringement issues. Somebody really handy could make one…but to have it custom made would probably be the same cost.

The pad helped get a reasonable fit.

BUT…

(uh-oh…)

My regular, 90-degree-bars Warren Wright tree Wade saddle, made for my narrow, shark-fin-withers TB gelding, actually fits these mares better than the wide, full-QH bars saddles with the correct-or pad.
Really.
To be fair, my Wade was only modified for the TB gelding by adding withers clearance, the angles weren’t made steeper than the ‘stock’ or average tree.
And I ride him with a 1/4" navajo under a 1" 5-Star pad. For roping anything other than calves (heavier), I will need to add more in order to keep the saddle off his withers.
When I saddle my round mares, I have only the navajo, no inch-thick 5-Star pad, so there is 2" less under the tree when you count both sides of the withers.
I also think that the same tree, with 92 degree bars (flatter roof pitch, if you will), would fit them even better.
But, in all I have put a saddle designed for a more level horse on them, so I’m not fighting bars made for an uphill horse, on a downhill horse.

I still would not want to rope large cattle or spend a lot of time on the hills with these mares. They simply do not have the withers to anchor the saddle significantly from rolling sideways.

Also, these mares are in a much better posture when being ridden. They obviously do not spend all day in collection (with the raising of the entire ribcage/base of neck, any ‘downhill’ horse can become level or even uphill) but they are balanced and using themselves with their back muscles in release most of the time. I can feel when they tighten up and bend their bodies the wrong way, and step the hind end over to release a brace and rebalance them, and that has become ‘subconscious’ rather than something I have to really think about and feel for.

[Fillabeana]

Oh, I’ve seen the CSI pads up close and personal.
I think one would be nice if I roped heavy cattle a lot.
I know Buck was riding in them a couple of summers ago.
But I don’t see a reason to use them over a 5-Star wool pad unless you’re really doing a lot of roping of big cattle.

[Fillabeana]

By the way…I bought an ‘envelope pad’, which was the most basic and least expensive, in 2009 or 2010.
I don’t see it anywhere on the website.
That website makes my eyes hurt…

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=froglander;7441739]
It’s really too bad the website for those pads is so insane!

What about the CSI pads? I tried one once, and liked it, but it was too thick so I ended up sending it back (they offer a 30 day trial).[/QUOTE]

I know, I have a hard time making heads or tails of the website. I had the same experience with the CSI pad - too thick for my liking.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7442263]
By the way…I bought an ‘envelope pad’, which was the most basic and least expensive, in 2009 or 2010.
I don’t see it anywhere on the website.
That website makes my eyes hurt…[/QUOTE]

Can you buy just the inserts and use them in a different kind of pad, or do they all majikally fit together?

[Fillabeana]

The inserts all majikally fit together in the ‘envelope’ pad.
The envelope pad is much like a half-pad, that the firm felt inserts just tuck into. The felt shims also velcro to each other. It’s all very stable. As I said, there are good ways to shim to find a fit- but I couldn’t ever get something other than my majikal pad to stay stable.

[brennab]

I appreciate all your replies! I agree that the CorrecTor site is a clusterf#$%. Ha.

My back is killing me and I can’t quite respond. Give me a day to let the pain meds set in, and then I will respond. But thank you. Stay tuned…