Strange behaviors in freshly off-the-track mare

[katenreno]

A couple weeks ago I picked up an adorable CANTER trainer listing. She is an absolute doll, she is sweet, calm and level-headed. She does have a few weird quirks though, which I am trying to sort out. I started her off just doing some round pen work, to kind of lay the foundation for her re-training. I noticed that when she is trotting, either direction, she will twist her head to the side. She will twist it both left and right, and it’s when going both directions. I noticed it the first day I worked her in the round pen, and that combined with some irritability when her sides and belly are brushed, led me to believe that it is ulcer-related. I started her on Gastrogard, and am doing a full tube daily for 28 days, then will wean down. My trainer has lunged her a couple times for me, and didn’t mention anything, so I kind of forgot about it. Yesterday, I had someone out to do some massage/acupressure because I figured she would have some overall soreness from being on the track. The woman wanted to watch her move in the round pen first, and we both noticed the head twisting. It was much more pronounced than I had seen it last time. She thought she might have some soreness or neck pain. She did some work on the neck, and the mare never palpated sore at all, but she was still sensitive about her belly being touched. I went out this evening and rode for about 15 minutes. Tonight was only the 3rd time I’ve ridden her, and we are doing very light walk/trot work. The first 2 times there was no head twist, but tonight it was present at the trot, both directions. She does not seem irritable or sour under saddle at all.

Basically, my question after such a lengthy description is, does this sound ulcer-related, or should I start considering other causes? She is now 2 weeks into the Gastrogard treatment, so I would think it would have improved, not worsened… Though I would also expect her to be less grumpy when her belly is brushed too. She has a wonderful appetite, and her manure is pristine. She is a moderate cribber…

Her current diet is 2 flakes of alfalfa twice daily, her slow feeder is always full of bermuda hay, and she gets soaked timothy pellets and beet pulp at lunch. I have her on Allay for her tummy, ProBios, and Gleam and Gain 60.

Its looking better, but her coat was dull and kind of long when i got her. She has some fairly symmetrical hair loss on her butt cheeks, right along and kind of under her tail, and under her belly and a little on her chest. The hair is starting to grow in, so I don’t quite know what to make of it. It’s not itchy, irritated or flakey. Just… bald. She tends to sweat a moderate amount in her stall, but it is HOT right now, and she has more hair than she should now, so I don’t worry too much. I give her electrolytes on the hot days, and she is always well-hydrated.

SO!!! Could all these weird things be related? To me, they all could be ulcer-related, but it worries me that they aren’t improving on the gastrogard. My vet is scheduled to come out in a couple weeks, so I can ask her these things then, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to get some COTH opinions. It is also worth noting that her pre-purchase exam didn’t reveal anything alarming that would have suggested ulcers or neck pain, but I also did not have her scoped.

Thanks in advance, and thanks for reading my novel!

[retrofit]

Hard to say. My horse twists his head & neck around just being a goober, then works out of it. I don’t mean “snaking” his neck (although he does that too), I mean really twisting around & holding it there. Sometimes twisting at the poll, sometimes the whole neck. He has been ulcer-y before and I know his signs, and I’m pretty confident he’s not ulcer-y now. I guess it’s one of those behaviors you have to “take in context” which is hard when you’re just getting to know your horse. Good luck with your new girl

[CFFarm]

Teeth or mouth problems?

[Flash44]

Ditto the above. The very back teeth are hard to get, and she may have caudal hooks that are irritating a nerve. This can cause discomfort, stiffness and irritability through the entire body.

I had a massage therapist work on my mare, who was very grouchy and irritable loping to the right, and she told me the mare had caudal hooks (despite having dental work done annually). I rolled my eyes and said I would have the dentist check on it. Used a new dentist and yes, the horse had large caudal hooks and the horse improved very dramatically over the next few weeks once they were gone.

[Countrywood]

Any possibility she is pregnant? It happens sometimes…the people across barn aisle from me bought a mare 8 months ago, had no idea she was in foal when they bought her ( sellers did not know either they claim) The new owners had vet check on her when she was acting odd and HE did not pick up on it (how?), anyway, last month she delivered a foal a complete surprise to everyone!

As others noted maybe neck pain a pasture slip or the like…perhaps not round pen/lunge her for a few weeks the small circles might irritate if that is cause.

Other possibility worms? Maybe get a fecal count done. Good luck she sounds very sweet.

[Texarkana]

Aside from the theories on ulcers/teeth/musculoskeletal pain, I might also be inclined to wonder if she has some hormonal changes going on.

Some fillies race on Regumate or similar to prevent them from cycling (less common), but all fillies hormonal cycles are affected by their muscling and extreme athleticism (most common). I’m also guessing she’s probably young in age. The combination of the new lifestyle + reduced workload + the shortening days as we approach diestrus season may be enough to throw her hormones out of whack, which could be making her stiff and grumpy.

If it were me, I’d be doing exactly what you’re doing: treating for ulcers and checking for body pain. I’d also have the vet double check her teeth. Most racehorses have good dental care, but it still can be hit or miss for some horses. And like Flash44 said, it’s not uncommon for even experienced vets and dentists to leave caudal hooks. I’d give her a few more weeks to settle in before doing additional diagnostics.

[Lady_Eboshi]

Usually they do this when they’re seeking balance; you have to remember an ex-racehorse was seldom (if ever) worked on any kind of tight circle. She doesn’t have the muscling to do it yet, and is simply looking for a place to put her body.
9 times out of 10 they’ll carry their head to the outside and pop the shoulder inward. This is all normal. The way you fix it is to longe her, using a loose rubber-donut side rein on the inside only. She’ll figure it out!

I take complete exception to the idea that this kind of movement is due to “ulcers.” Pretty soon “ulcers” are going to be implicated in Global Warming, Zombie Apocalypse and Tornado Alley, seriously! If your mare is getting adequate turnout and good hay, for heaven’s sake worry about demonic posession instead. At least it’ll be CHEAPER, and have as much effect.

It’s a SCHOOLING thing. And take your time! Congrats on buying the mare.

[katenreno]

Thanks for all the input! I had not considered teeth, as they told me she had them done 3 months ago, and neither the PPE vet nor my trainer felt any hooks (though they obviously didn’t feel the back teeth!). So that’s something to consider if it doesn’t resolve. I had also not considered hormonal. And she better not be pregnant! Good Lord, don’t scare me like that! LOL.

I would think that its behavioral/schooling if it happened under saddle, but seeing as she does it in the 100’ round pen as she free lunges… I have a hard time believing that.

While she is on good hay and has it in front of her at all times, she does not get turnout, other than in the arena to roll and run around. I live in San Diego, and 95% of places (mine included) do not offer pasture turnout of any sort; we just don’t have the land. The fact that she spent the last 4 years of her life racing (she’s 6) is what led me to assume that she has ulcers. My vet said we could scope, but that she was absolutely comfortable with me just treating for them.

I do love the theory about ulcers being responsible for the Zombie Apocolypse. I will watch the next episode of Walking Dead with a whole new perspective!! :winkgrin:

[Minerva]

You mentioned massage and acupuncture, but I didn’t see if you had an actual chiropractor out? That would be one of the first things I did. Have the horse adjusted by a licensed chiropractor and follow his/her instructions (for example, if the horse was a tough case and they felt that it needed follow up adjustments in 4 or 8 weeks) and then address any issues or concerns that arise afterward with a vet or trainer as needed.

Congratulations on your mare, and good luck!

[findeight]

A 100’ circle is something race horses almost never see and I am with LE she is clueless what to do with herself. Don’t see a rider making much difference until she learns how to position herself and move. Ditto the single side rein on the insude to help her figure it out. But it’s going to take more time to untrain and retrain then just straight up train a youngster that doesn’t already have the ingrained habits of a 4 year career racehorse. Her muscle memory is also that of a career racehorse and it will take time to for memory and the muscle itself to learn new ways.

Dont think she’s pregnant, nothing described is typical of that. The bald spots on the butt could be a result of rubbing, insect bites, non specific dermatitis (a rash)
or even a bout of bad diarrhea that scalded the skin. Had a couple of TBs that were basically bald around their faces and butt crack when the thin summer coat shed out before the winter coat started in. Would not worry at this point.

Not aiming at OP in particular but many really do not realize what a total lifestyle change coming from a race barn to a pleasure barn is for the horse so don’t think a course of the Gastrogard is a bad idea in general. Depending on the race barn she came out of, she may have some things still in her system that will take awhile to completely clear. You may get some hoof abcesses, no idea why but some right off the track seem to be subject to them the first months of the transition. Just alot of change for them physically and mentally even up they are basically broke.

Take your time and don’t hesitate to ask for help, this is a great source, a trainer with a lot of actual experience with actual career changers is an even better one.

Think it would be a great idea to keep a notebook of things to ask your vet when she comes out in a few weeks, start with teeth and the entire mouth including along the base of the gums down inside the lips and waaay in the back.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=findeight;8305936]
A 100’ circle is something race horses almost never see and I am with LE she is clueless what to do with herself. [/QUOTE]

It’s actually not as uncommon as you think, especially in this era of the eurocisers.

Most all babies are started in a round pen and it’s becoming increasingly rare to meet a horse who hasn’t encountered an equiciser or eurocisers at least once in their life.

But I do agree the behavior could very likely be confusion. It could also be something she “got away with” on the track with her previous riders if it was not affecting her rideability.

[findeight]

True…but this is a 6 year old just off 4 years at the track so I bet it’s been awhile and even that did not include cantering around it. I’ve seen some do some odd things the first few months that went away without intervention.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I agree with those who say she is seeking her balance. Even my gelding who had been trained in dressage was very out of condition on the circle until he got stronger.

The mare holding her head like this is entirely typical of a horse who is seeking balance on a circle she doesn’t have condtion for. LE 's suggestion of a side rein on the inside is important. She will find her balance and it will be like yoga building up muscle to carry herself.

If you put much energy into anything else, other than the teeth hooks, you will be missing your opprotunity to learn about and teach her how to bend. Bend really is your friend. I can guarantee you that she is popping her inside shoulder on the circle, too, even when you ride.

[Trails]

I agree with Lady Eboshi. OTTB’s haven’t done circle work at all and are quite unbalanced in a typical outdoor riding ring and/or round pen. When circling ask for the bend but be sure to steady with the out side rein and leg. Do lots of walking bending too. Remember, that other then running straight the only bends are around the track.

[jawa]

I wouldn’t overlook the fact that it may just be her way of letting you know she is stressed/confused/tense. It may have been something that wasn’t corrected by her jockey/exercise rider because it didn’t show up during her track training/racing.

There is one OTTB that I know of that does this until he has relaxed. It only shows up under stressful/tense moments. He is a foxhunter and it isn’t until he’s had a bit of a run that he will become straight. His rider lets him be, because he isn’t “misbehaving” in any other way. She considers it his pacifier and is willing to let him soothe himself.

[Hermein]

FWIW, my vet told me that she had seen lots of rain rot this year, because of the heat, which has led to lots of sweating. If your girl is sweating a lot, this could cause the bald spots you’re seeing.

My horse developed this along his spine and on the backs of his legs, but cleared up in just a couple of days with treatment. I used a product called Muck Itch, but there are other brands that probably work as well.

[JB]

If sweating caused rain rot, my guys should be covered RR is almost always from a nutritional deficiency - copper and zinc or, in cases of hay-only diets, often Vit A and Vit E. IMHO all horses on hay-only diets, and even those on grass but muzzled full time, should have added Vit E

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=JB;8306643]
If sweating caused rain rot, my guys should be covered RR is almost always from a nutritional deficiency - copper and zinc or, in cases of hay-only diets, often Vit A and Vit E. IMHO all horses on hay-only diets, and even those on grass but muzzled full time, should have added Vit E[/QUOTE]

I agree about sweating.

But you are casting a VERY large blanket saying;

“RR is almost always from a nutritional deficiency - copper and zinc or, in cases of hay-only diets,”

I have never found this to be true. There can be a number of reasons, horse, skin type, climate conditions, blanketing etc. Diet would be very low on my list.

IF it was “almost always” from diet why have we been able to clear it up pretty quickly without changing the horse’s diet?

[gumtree]

Without a video and or working with the horse myself I am just guessing.

I have seen some horses do this that came from trainers that didn’t use hot walkers, the human type. A smaller tracks, trainers who are short on staff for economic reasons still use the old style Hot Walking machines. They type that the horse is “hooked” to and are pretty small in diameter.

I have seen a lot of horses holding their head while on these things like you have described. And it becomes habit.

Watching horse on the track during the morning training sessions you will see a lot of horse galloping and jogging, (trotting) with their head held like you have described. Again, good chance it becomes “habit”.

I bought a horse off the track, from one of the “lesser” tracks. Very nice fellow to work with, great jumper. But he had a REALLY nasty habit of tossing his head up and down while walking out to our gallops on the farm, jogging and galloping. You had to ride him with “rubber band” arms. There was nothing physically wrong with him.

But it was really annoying and a bit disconcerting galloping to a jump with his head going up and down. He was being trained for steeplechase racing, Timber so we are running at the jumps pretty fast. These are not small jumps. Always made for some anxious moments before the jump but he would stop it just before takeoff and start again after landing.

About -6-8 months later he slowly stopped doing it. And then one day he stopped and has never done it again.

[JB]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8306740]
I agree about sweating.

But you are casting a VERY large blanket saying;

“RR is almost always from a nutritional deficiency - copper and zinc or, in cases of hay-only diets,”

I have never found this to be true. There can be a number of reasons, horse, skin type, climate conditions, blanketing etc. Diet would be very low on my list.

IF it was “almost always” from diet why have we been able to clear it up pretty quickly without changing the horse’s diet?[/QUOTE]
IME because sometimes, or maybe often, it’s just the right combination of environmental factors which stress the horse’s immune system enough to allow rainrot to take hold.

The organisms that cause rr are everywhere in the soil (which is why it’s not “contagious” like some think, admonishing everyone to wash the heck out of brushes, although a horse with rr does have a nice concentration of bacteria to be passed around, which isn’t necessarily good), yet most horses don’t get it. When you see a few horses in a herd with it, you know it’s not just because they “caught” it.

Sure, things like cuts or bug bites can be the catalyst, especially if you combine that with blanketing and creating a favorable environment for bacterial growth.

Rain rot is very similar to scratches. Probably 80% of the people I have talked to about chronic scratches on their horse’s white legs/pink skin have totally resolved it by supplementing copper and zinc - myself included - even after spend years trying to keep the horse out of the sun/wet grass/this ointment and that immune stimulant, only to have it come back every Spring (or whatever other regular basis). That doesn’t mean all of the problems are caused by a nutritional deficiency though.

I think far more issues than many people realize arise out of a nutritional deficiency, and it’s not even considered because the horse looks fine otherwise. But getting enough nutrition for health doesn’t mean it’s enough for optimal health. The exact same cu/zn, for example, for a pale palomino may not be nearly enough for a black horse.

Treating a given case may well get rid of it for that time. Conditions change and are no longer more favorable for problems for that horse. But if a bit of a nutritional deficiency is the real underlying cause, then when conditions are favorable again, that horse may well develop rr or scratches again.