Hello, I have this bit that I am curious about. Looks like a copper Pelham Mullen mouth, missing the chain. But what I’m confused about is the snaffle ring is really odd… has anyone seen this before? Thanks.
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I do not know what bit this is.
But I noticed that it has the little eyelet near the bottom of the shanks for a lip strap, which is used to help keep the curb chain in the right place, in the horse’s curb groove.
So this bit seems to be made to use with a curb chain.
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Yah, I believe this is an old bit. The chain is missing. But aren’t those snaffle rings such a strange shape? I don’t think I’ve ever seen them in that shape.
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I have seen such bits among the western section for many years. Have never looked into them so I don’t know their exact purpose. Maybe converting a horse in training from a snaffle to a curb?
Sometimes they have a port, like this one.
I wouldn’t expect a western bit to have a lip strap.
Very odd shape, maybe it was used by a very strong necked cob, whose name was “whoa you son of unwed parents” and the rings became elongated.
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Western riders and tack stores are where I’ve seen it. I don’t know why a lip strap would make it “not western”.
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I didn’t say a lip strap would make it ‘not western’ I am saying that I have never seen a western bit that used a lip strap. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, just never come across it, only on English style bits.
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Looks like a driving bit to me. There’s all different kinds. My question is, did someone mount it in a picture frame? Interesting idea!
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I agree, looks like a driving bit.
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@OTTB_LRF, that seems clearly to be some kind of pelham, but I have never seen one with snaffle rings like that. I’ve got two old bit book out in my office; I’ll look tomorrow and see if I can find something that looks like that.
@OverandOnward, that bit you posted is a type of Argentine snaffle. It is a western bit. In theory, it is designed to allow the use of two reins, one for the snaffle rings, one for the curb rings, when transitioning a horse from the snaffle to the curb bit. In reality, I have never seen anyone use it as a two rein bit, only as a curb.
Despite the surface similarity, it is not a type of pelham, which is the English bit pictured in the original post. Besides the fact that one is used only for western riding and one is used only for English riding, pelhams and Argentine snaffles have different goals. The goal of the Argentine snaffle is to get the horse working in a curb bit. Any use of double reins is strictly a temporary transition measure. A pelham, on the other hand, is a using bit - it is intended to be used with double reins and a horse may stay in a pelham forever. It is not used as a transition to something else.
And a lip strap would indeed make a bit “not western.” Western bits don’t have lip straps because they have no need of them. Lip straps serve specific purposes used along with a curb chain on a pelham or an English curb (Weymouth) bit. Curb chains on English bits attach differently than curb straps on western curb bits.
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It doesn’t look like any kind of driving bit to me. Driving bits are designed to be used with 1 rein, this definitely looks like it’s set up for 2 reins. I’m guessing some kind of older pelham.
I was just about to say the same thing. No way this is a driving bit. Imagine putting long driving lines on a shank like that. Oh boy now that would be some insane leverage. And yes, no way would 2 lines go to one bit and a long shank like that would be caught on many things when a animal moves its head, such as shafts, his own lines or if its driven with another, it would be caught on pair lines as well.
lots of Western bits use leather straps or chains, depending on the bit
https://www.statelinetack.com/western-saddles-and-tack/western-bits-and-bit-guards/1135/?intid=NAV20220309
Probably almost every “colt starting” setup I’ve seen with a loose ring bit, has a lip strap, especially since Western tends to not have a caveson to limit how much the mouth can open
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Some liverpool driving bits do have longer shanks with the lowest slot giving a lot of leverage, though IME that slot is rarely used. The major difference, as I said, is driving bits a designed for 1 rein, not 2.
Here is an example with 5 possible rein settings:
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There’s all kinds of driving bits, and some have more than one rein attachment or connection - just like riding bits. It’s not very common, but I’ve seen it.
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You are talking about something else entirely. None of what you’re talking about is a lip strap like you use with a curb chain on a pelham.
I would guess that unless you(g) are of a certain age and background, you’ve(g) never seen a lip strap in use.
That’s not a lip strap, it’s a repurposed curb strap.
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Many of the liverpools and other driving bits with curb action can be used with 2 reins when their used a riding bits, as the elbow bit on your diagram shows, but they are designed to primarily to offer multiple options for use with 1 rein. Driving with 2 reins on the bit would be extremely difficult with just 1 horse let alone multiple horses.
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That picture is of two harness horses.
I don’t disagree that it is difficult, just pointing out it is done. Would I do it? No.
If you are ever at Times Square, occasionally you’ll see carriage horses with two also. I don’t know why it is done (strong horse? check rein?), but not my horse, not my call.
I’ve also seen more than one rein attachment on standardbreds for harness racing.
Just like with riding, bits are used for all sorts of creative reasons, with all sorts of creative get ups. Driving isn’t an exception. I don’t wonder if the secondary rein attaches somewhere else.
This is a picture of how a lip strap is set up on a pelham or curb. It is used with a curb chain to keep the curb chain in place and not twisted. It’s the reason many curb chains have a extra ring hanging from the middle. It’s not the same as a curb strap.
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Yes, I use the same liverpool but on the rough cheek or maybe the first slot. Never the dead mans slot and I only know of one trainer that ever did.
I more was saying the curved cheeks would get caught on a lot as they would “scoop” things into it. I have a hard enough time with the straight bars on my liverpool not getting caught on his partner. A slobber bar would prevent that, but they are hard to find.
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