Strong but soft

[SoundAndFury]

I have an issue that is bugging me…I do ride with a trainer but we haven’t been able to fix this yet. I think my trainer is amazing with helping me improve my horse, but “only” good about improving me, so here I am.

Whenever I’m needing to be or feeling defensive, I ride pretty well to the jump (per my trainer) but then I drop back and open up WAY too early over the jump. For example, I see a deep spot, so I think about sitting back and waiting, but then it’s like my brain is stuck on ‘sit up and wait’ over the jump. This will also happen over a spooky jump that I ride defensively, even if my horse jumps it normally with no drama. Really, any time I approach a jump with a defensive mindset, I keep that behind the motion attitude over the jump. And my horse hates it! Which then makes me more defensive, cue downward spiral…

Does anyone have any tips to help me give a strong ride to the jump when needed, but then stay with the motion over the jump? This doesn’t happen when things are going well, or when I need to sit back more but am feeling confident. Last week we went through a gymnastic where my trainer had me focus on sitting down through a 2-stride, and that went fine; I’m also able to sit deep through a tight short turn and then stay with my horse over the jump. I did experiment with riding in more of a 2-point, which was lovely part of the time but also resulted in some ugly & well deserved chips. My trainer acknowledges that different horses like different rides, but says that my seat approaching the jump is appropriate. Maybe there’s a position issue too but there’s definitely a huge mental component that I’m fed up with! Any suggestions as to how to ride strong to the jump, but soft over it?

[Another-Bay]

So this is not consistent - only when you are riding defensively?

I would put poles on the ground, a shorter line of four to a longer, more relaxed and open 5. This will help you ride the connected, packaged horse, then encourage yourself to relax over the longer 5.

As well, when riding over jumps put down a landing pole and think about staying over until your horse passed his entire body over the pole. Start small, with X’s until you’ve mastered the feeling.

Even when hacking, you can practice shortening then relax. There is nothing that sitting up early will do to help you or your horse, trust me, I suffered from that malady as well and it meant lots of 4-faulters!

[ecileh]

Try counting the rhythm of the canter stride as you approach the fence (or all the way around the ring, even). 90% of finding “the spot” is rhythm and if you are counting, you’re aware of when the rhythm changes for some reason. Counting also gets you focused on something else besides finding the spot–which, in my experience can be stress inducing in and of itself. Is that it? Is it big? Is it small? Is THAT it? Oh, shit, we just missed it and we’re gonna chip.

I count 1,2 1,2 like a metronome, but others I know count up or down to the fence and others still sing a song like Clementine to themselves to keep the rhythm.

If the rhythm is right, the spot will just show up most of the time. And if it doesn’t you will have a better sense of whether it’s going to be long or short and can adjust accordingly.

I, too, will sometimes get stuck in my seat to the long distance–counting has mostly fixed that for me. It still happens every once in a while, but FAR less often. I count all the time now while jumping…trot jumps, singles, courses…even at a gallop in the hunt field.

[Madison]

You could practice fences with a placing rail a stride or two out on the landing side where you have to hold yourself off your horse’s back until you are past the rail. But if the issue only happens when you are defensive, that may not replicate the issue. Ultimately, it is going to have to be a mental fix, and you may have to try telling yourself at every fence to hold your position for a stride after the jump, and maybe focusing on that stride will keep you from focusing on the defensive reflex of sitting up. Always so tough to overcome our reflexive actions!

[melula]

I have to concentrate on doing something rather than not doing something. Make a mental note to feel the neck through the landing. If you’re a crest releaser, grab mane through the landing. If you’re an automatic releaser, get a neck strap. Once you jar your elbows and shoulders on the neck strap a couple of times and think that could have been Dobbin’s mouth, it will likely start to resonate. I think popping up in the middle of a jumping effort ultimately stems from the leg and core strength. Baby steps.

[SoundAndFury]

@Another-Bay

So this is not consistent - only when you are riding defensively?

That’s right - I even had few weeks of not doing it all (that I can remember…I’m sure I had a bad jump in there somewhere). I was thinking I had finally vanquished this habit and then we had an off day that prompted my post. My background has both H/J and eventing instructors, and I will say that I do have more of a deeper “eventer” seat over jumps, not sure how related that is.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions - sounds like placing a landing pole is the top suggestion - I’ll do that. And Eclieh, you’re right that anxiety about “the spot” is part of this - my horse jumps from anywhere without blinking an eye but I have some baggage that I haven’t gotten rid of yet. And I have an old stirrup leather that would be perfect for a neck strap - another great idea, thanks!

[Spud_amp_Saf]

It sounds like you might be driving with your seat and riding defensively, instead of giving a “strong” ride. This will cause you to get behind the motion, and will cause a lot of horses to drop their back and invert. You will almost certainly be left behind a lot of the time you use this move. This may be an effective get the horse over the fence move on an in case of emergency basis, but should not be relied upon as your go to for giving a strong ride to the fence. It will create a lot more “misses” to the jumps, too.

I used to do this with one specified horse I rode, and it did not encourage a smooth jump or a smooth round and ultimately irritated the horse because you were never really with it and almost perpetuated the backing off issue I was trying to fix. He was a bit looky, but the defensive ride I was giving him was not improving his confidence. That was something I really had to think about.

One way to fix this is to really get the horse off the leg. If they are at all dull to the leg, you won’t trust them to react when you close the leg and you will default to sitting and driving. This can be done quite easily with more attentive flat and cavaletti work.

I had to learn how to encourage forward while staying light in the seat but closing the hip angle, while keeping the shoulders tall Closing your leg and hip angle slightly without throwing the shoulders forward will allow you to encourage the horse forward without getting behind the motion, thus keeping you in the middle of the horse and allowing you to stay with the horse over the jump much more easily. However, you have to have know that the horse is truly going to move off the leg when you close it.

Placing and landing poles help, but one of the best exercises I’ve ever been given is to canter courses of poles on the ground, every time you ride. This exercise is easy on the horse and really lets the rider learn the step, rhythm, etc. and develops the eye amazingly well.

Interestingly, the horse I developed this habit on was also a"curler" and liked to travel behind the contact at times. Although it was something I was working on, it was not always one hundred percent. This was the symptom of the bigger problem - the horse was not moving off the leg appropriately and didn’t move up into and stay in the contact consistently. As soon as I started to do the above things, he definitely got more confident and the jump got softer and rounder.

Really, this problem was solved by better flatwork, getting the horse between the leg and hand consistently, and the acceptance that the defensive ride is going to create a defenisve horse.

[SoundAndFury]

@Spud&Saf

It sounds like you might be driving with your seat and riding defensively, instead of giving a “strong” ride. This will cause you to get behind the motion, and will cause a lot of horses to drop their back and invert.

…

One way to fix this is to really get the horse off the leg. If they are at all dull to the leg, you won’t trust them to react when you close the leg and you will default to sitting and driving. This can be done quite easily with more attentive flat and cavaletti work.

…

Really, this problem was solved by better flatwork, getting the horse between the leg and hand consistently, and the acceptance that the defensive ride is going to create a defenisve horse.

Wow, have you been watching my lessons? Your post really made me stop and think, and I think got to more of the root of the problem.

I DO get too heavy and behind the motion when I get defensive. I’m maybe an example of the negative side of growing up horseless and riding all the naughty ones - plus now combined with the loss of confidence that comes with adulthood. I have been experimenting with lightening my seat etc, which works well some of the time but ends up with me jumping ahead or getting chips other times. I need to find the happy medium, somehow.

And we’re better than we were, but getting my horse truly in front of my leg is a work in progress. I never really thought about that issue being connected to “my” problem, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks, I think you touched on some of the root causes of the issue. Good stuff to think about and work on!

[Spud_amp_Saf]

@SoundAndFury

Wow, have you been watching my lessons? Your post really made me stop and think, and I think got to more of the root of the problem.

I DO get too heavy and behind the motion when I get defensive. I’m maybe an example of the negative side of growing up horseless and riding all the naughty ones - plus now combined with the loss of confidence that comes with adulthood. I have been experimenting with lightening my seat etc, which works well some of the time but ends up with me jumping ahead or getting chips other times. I need to find the happy medium, somehow.

And we’re better than we were, but getting my horse truly in front of my leg is a work in progress. I never really thought about that issue being connected to “my” problem, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks, I think you touched on some of the root causes of the issue. Good stuff to think about and work on!

I had the benefit of an excellent trainer’s eyes to get through this, as well as his brutal honesty. I also had similar prior experience to you, so I can totally relate. Keep us updated how it goes, when the light bulb goes on and you stop doing the defensive thing, it is really the best feeling!

[NeedsAdvil]

Agree with the above post, totally. There’s a difference between a driving seat and a strong ride. I can be light in the tack and ready for the horse to jump me out of the tack over a spooky fence while still being able to engage my leg to ensure that we actually jump. It took a lot of work doing transitions in two-point for me to learn how to keep my leg active no matter what seat I was using. It’s hard to be consistent with leg in two point or even half seat, so I really had to learn that. Look up articles or videos on “independent aids” for ideas on exercises. Good luck!

[SoundAndFury]

@Spud&Saf

I had the benefit of an excellent trainer’s eyes to get through this, as well as his brutal honesty. I also had similar prior experience to you, so I can totally relate. Keep us updated how it goes, when the light bulb goes on and you stop doing the defensive thing, it is really the best feeling!

Update: I’ve had a couple productive lessons…things are better but need to get “more better” hahaha.

One thing I realized is that my trainer bumped up some of the jumps and my crappy defensive ride coincided with the bigger jumps. Every jump school since then has gotten a bit better, and I’m getting more relaxed and confident.

But you know how I said I don’t normally do this unless I’m feeling defensive? Only partially true. I looked back at a jumping video I have from a few months ago, and I could see that while it was subtle, I was still coming back early. Nothing dramatic, I suspect most eventing trainers wouldn’t have a problem with it but a jumper trainer would. So it seems like I do have this tendency even when everything is hunky-dory, and then it gets magnified 100X when I get anxious.

I had a good conversation with my trainer about this. They had a couple good suggestions I’m trying out - one possibly key one is that I tend to “lock” my back and pelvis. So when I feel like I need to sit back a bit, I lean way back. He had me thing about disconnecting my pelvis from my back, so that I can use my seat more without leaning back. I am really liking the feel I get when I relax my back and pelvis so they are “disconnected” from each other (and that also might be the key to fixing my upper body pumping at the canter issue?!)

Had a “meh” jump lesson today. Wasn’t awful, and was definitely better than the ride that prompted this post, but horsie and I never quite got in sync. And yes, he was definitely behind my leg. They took some photos of me over jumps using the burst mode (is that the right term? A bunch of pictures over a few seconds?). He showed them to me and said that I’m exactly where I need to be on take off and over the apex of the jump, but then I start dropping back as my horse descends. I wasn’t doing it as badly as a few weeks ago, but I’m still coming back too early.

So I think the feedback I’ve gotten on this thread is spot on. Need to get my horse in front of my leg. I’m threatening myself about taping some tacks to the seat of my saddle hahaha. I have been using a neck strap the past few weeks, but I haven’t actually been grabbing it. I think I’ll set up some low jumps and lope around in two point holding the neck strap and not letting my seat sink into the saddle at all, since slightly behind the motion is my current normal. @NeedsAdvil transitions in two-point YES!

[ohmylivia]

So much good advice, and I’ve also been through it with a horse that was dull to my leg - the first year of riding him had me solidly in a driving seat just to get him moving. Once we perked him up off my leg, it was MUCH easier to lighten my seat more often (though he still needs me in the rumble seat from time to time). I’ve also dealt with what you’re talking about with disconnecting your pelvis from your back so that you can sit up without sitting down (if that makes sense?). Of course I can’t speak for you, but in my case that had a lot to do with my own core strength and being able to hold my body out of the saddle while still sitting up for landing. Once I worked on building my core, it was much much easier to find the right balance there.

[greysfordays]

I agree getting your core stronger could help you. I also do a Kathy Kusner exercise where I do my canter transitions reversed seat wise.

I send the horse forward in light three point contact (with my hip a bit closed) and then to collect I come into a lighter seat, lift my elbow, engage my core and squeeze with my legs. The horse’s back can come up without the burden of my seat against him and it is a real leg and core strengthener to do a correct collection. Before practicing this, I couldn’t effectively get my horse in front of my leg without sitting down.

Trying to get the horse in front of your leg in a lighter seat takes practice, you sometimes think they are, but they’re really more just strung out on a long stride. Practicing the collection and higher RPM canter can really help you ride a course in a lighter seat but still compress the spring the avoid those chips or move up if you need to.

[SoundAndFury]

That exercise sounds great, @greysfordays, I’ll use that! And nice to hear that I’m not alone, @ohmylivia.

You guys have inspired me - I’m reasonably fit, but sitting at a desk all day doesn’t do me any favors. I had read through some threads not long ago about the importance of core work, and I got all motivated and bought a groupon for pilates classes. But the place didn’t have any beginner classes that would work with my schedule (um, no, I definitely can not make your 10 am Monday class…). And then that idea faded into oblivion, though I have been doing a little bit of core work on my own. Gotta get working on that again.

I love that I came here thinking that I needed some specific technical advice over jumps and you all helped me realize that most of if not all of the problem is in my fitness and flatwork (isn’t that always the case?). :lol: