Struggling with canter leads (still!)

[fermecinqsens]

My 5 yo Lusitano is the most lovely and trainable horse I’ve ever had. I started him at 3 and then he was turned away to grow up until last summer (when he was 4). Since then I’ve been riding him about twice a week. He learns everything super quick and without complication. We are working on a bit of everything and are just starting to compete in dressage, working equitation, and a bit of jumping. We will make our 1st level dressage
debut this month. His canter was originally very unbalanced but it’s nice now and he picks it up usually without running into it from either trot or walk. He is the most correct horse I’ve had: He isn’t one-sided, isn’t crooked, has a lovely light connection (not too light), responsive without being evasive, etc.

All this, but we still struggle with canter leads! It is both directions that we have difficulty. Sometimes he feel so perfectly on my aids and THERE and yet still picks up the wrong lead. It isn’t every time, of course, maybe 1/10 on average, but it’s often enough that I have to cross my fingers each time to hope we get the correct lead 🫣 It seems like we should be beyond this. I get lessons sometimes from a woman who tells me it’s my timing that’s off, and I’m not asking at the right point in the trot stride. I believe her, but I also think there’s no way everyone else in the world is asking their horse to canter at the perfect point in the stride. I’ve also never paid attention to that on my previous horses and never struggled with leads (beyond the first bit of cantering under saddle of course).
It’s a bit embarrassing that we’re still having this issue.
Any thoughts?

[MadTrotter]

Sounds like a lovely fun horse! Are you able to sense his footfalls at walk and trot, so you can give the departure aids when the desired hind leg is on the upswing? When I was learning this, it was super helpful to have eyes on the ground until I could get the feel.

[pluvinel]

@fermecinqsens

I get lessons sometimes from a woman who tells me it’s my timing that’s off, and I’m not asking at the right point in the trot stride.

This is the problem…you are overthinking instead of “riding.” The horse will feel before your brain processes all these mechanistic instructions that your instructor is giving you.

You say

@fermecinqsens

He learns everything super quick and without complication.

I suggest you just “put the canter into your body”…eg., think like you are cantering yourself…I guarantee if you have a sensitive Lusitano he will understand and give you a strikeoff.

I am speaking from experience. If you think too much when riding a sensitive horse, you will be a day late and a dollar short…and I guarantee you will be behind the movement.

You need to ride from FEEL… I had an instructor tell me to quit thinking and start riding. I am just passing on that advice.

[outerbanks77]

So how are you aiding and what are you doing when you get the wrong lead?

[Bogey2]

Don’t fool yourself about crooked/one sided…at that age he is still finding his balance and you have to find your timing like the others say. I also work canter departs on the lunge line with my 3 yr old Lusitano who is not under saddle yet. I am teaching him to canter when I make a kiss noise and his outside hind is under/pushing off.

[netg]

@pluvinel

I suggest you just “put the canter into your body”…eg., think like you are cantering yourself…I guarantee if you have a sensitive Lusitano he will understand and give you a strikeoff.

I was going to suggest similar. If you’re thinking too much about it and not feeling the lead you want in your body, on a very sensitive horse you are more likely to get your weight in the wrong place and in your horse’s mind force the wrong lead. Good news is for a super sensitive horse that becomes all the aid needed for lead changes later, bad news is for a sensitive horse you’ll struggle with counter canter if your seat switches weight/lead. I’m finally getting my mare who is far less sensitive to react similarly easily because it’s not her nature, but she does enjoy lighter aids so enjoys knowing it.

[pluvinel]

@netg

Good news is for a super sensitive horse that becomes all the aid needed for lead changes later, bad news is for a sensitive horse you’ll struggle with counter canter if your seat switches weight/lead.

Actually it is “good news/good news” because the tempi changes will come very easily…but it places a HUGE burden on the rider to develop absolute self awareness about what they are doing with their body.

(Shhhhhh…don’t tell anyone…that I was skipping in the back lot of the Virginia Horse Center practicing my “flying changes.”) It seemed that I could not consistently get the 3’s. I realized that I was totally uncoordinated in my own body because I was thinking too much and trying too hard.

If you told me to change at a specific physical point, like a cone, quarter line, centerline, quarter line and corner, I could do it. BUT…if I had to count…Forget it…too much thinking going on.

Fortunately I had a horse that was like, "Lady, you just sit there, I got it under control.)

[netg]

@pluvinel

Actually it is “good news/good news” because the tempi changes will come very easily…but it places a HUGE burden on the rider to develop absolute self awareness about what they are doing with their body

Well, yes to me as well I have health issues which prevent me from being able to have the strength and endurance I want, but I can control my body and that is therefore SO much easier for me than having to work hard

One day my trainer was playing around with telling me what to do and had me doing circles and figure 8s and changing leads wherever he suggested. At one point we took a walk break and I was thinking about the timing of our changes and asked, “were we just doing 3s on a 20m circle?” He started laughing, because we’d never even worked tempis, but she was sensitive and on my aids, so as long as I don’t overthink was totally natural for her.

[pluvinel]

@netg

I was thinking about the timing of our changes and asked, “were we just doing 3s on a 20m circle?”

This ^^^^. I totally get it. It is the curse of an analytical mind…too much thinking going on.

If my instructor told me when to change, change, change…all I needed to do was ride and voila, Changes.

BUT…heaven forbid that I had to count.

[Mondo]

@fermecinqsens

Since then I’ve been riding him about twice a week.

I think this may be contributing to your problem. I suspect he needs to be ridden more frequently. Maybe 4 or 5 days a week, brief sessions since he’s young. Also, if he picks up the wrong lead 1 time out of 10, then I wouldn’t get to worried about it. It’s one of those things that will go away as he matures and is better able to maintain his balance. You’re on the right track.

[sascha]

This may sound weird, but you can totally fix your timing on the longe if you’re a visual learner. The goal on the longe is to time your canter noise so that the horse has zero trouble popping into canter immediately. Play with the timing until your brain has a little ah ha moment. Practise until you make no mistakes. I promise it will carry over to your riding.

When you go back to riding the canter transitions, be patient. Your brain will translate what you’ve been seeing on the ground to what you’re feeling as you ride. Do not let the conscious part of your brain tell you that it caaaa-aaaan’t lol Wait for it to feel right before giving the aids even if you sit there in trot for a full circle the first time or two. Continue to be patient with yourself (trotting as many strides as necessary for it to feel right) and it will become ingrained.

Another exercise that will help is walk to posting trot transitions where you insist that you start rising on the first stride on the correct diagonal - no sitting one or two steps before rising. If you’re a visual learner, you can develop the feel needed for this by watching the outside shoulder in the walk. That outside shoulder doesn’t do anything crazy, it carries on going back and forth rhythmically. The exercise teaches your brain to understand there is nothing magic about transitions and will let you tune into what the horse is doing with its body parts.

[pluvinel]

@sascha

Wait for it to feel right before giving the aids even if you sit there in trot for a full circle the first time or two. Continue to be patient with yourself (trotting as many strides as necessary for it to feel right) and it will become ingrained.

I prefer to start the canter transitions from the walk…lots less bouncing going on…and slower gait allows horse and rider to get their acts together.

For me, once the walk-canter comes, the trot-canter is a non-event.

[sascha]

If there is literal rider bouncing going on in the trot, there are probably bigger problems than the timing of the canter aid.

[pluvinel]

@sascha

If there is literal rider bouncing going on in the trot, there are probably bigger problems than the timing of the canter aid.

It was a joke…this is the problem with dressage people…wayyyy too serious.

The walk is a slower gait, allows for rider and horse to be more organized and get their timing sorted out.

[sascha]

@pluvinel

It was a joke

Bounced right over my head.

[Mander]

@fermecinqsens

I also think there’s no way everyone else in the world is asking their horse to canter at the perfect point in the stride.

You’re right - but not everyone has a horse that needs precise timing. Lusitanos are notoriously sensitive and “overthinkers” so if you’re asking at a different point in the stride each time, he might just be a little confused.
That said, 1 mistake out of 10 tries is pretty darn good for a youngster. Give him as many successes as you can and he’ll only improve with time

Exercises I’ve done to help set them up for success and get the right lead are doing 2 steps of leg yield or haunches in just before each canter departure. You can also ride just off the rail at a walk and effectively do a roll-back into the wall and ask for the canter depart at the end (in the new direction of travel). The sweet spot is being close enough to the wall that they have to weight their hind end, but not so close that they have to back up or swing their haunches away from the wall. If you ask during turns, make sure you ask for the canter before the turn, and not immediately after because it’s very easy for them to pick up the wrong lead while they’re straightening their bodies back out.

[Kyrabee]

@pluvinel

I prefer to start the canter transitions from the walk…lots less bouncing going on…and slower gait allows horse and rider to get their acts together.

Me too. Much easier (to me) to start from the walk. Going from 4 beat (walk) to 3 beat canter just seems easier to organize that going 2 beat (trot) to 3 beat. JMO. Canter from walk comes along in 2nd level so I don’t see any reason to wait. Once these get fluid, then return to trot–canter.

Another exercise which is really good for strength is trot-canter-trot transitions on a circle. Initially, don’t worry about getting it just right…just get it. If the wrong lead, quietly go back to trot and ask again.

Susan

[beau159]

@fermecinqsens

My 5 yo Lusitano is the most lovely and trainable horse I’ve ever had. I started him at 3 and then he was turned away to grow up until last summer (when he was 4). Since then I’ve been riding him about twice a week. He learns everything super quick and without complication. We are working on a bit of everything and are just starting to compete in dressage, working equitation, and a bit of jumping. We will make our 1st level dressage
debut this month. His canter was originally very unbalanced but it’s nice now and he picks it up usually without running into it from either trot or walk. He is the most correct horse I’ve had: He isn’t one-sided, isn’t crooked, has a lovely light connection (not too light), responsive without being evasive, etc.

All this, but we still struggle with canter leads! It is both directions that we have difficulty. Sometimes he feel so perfectly on my aids and THERE and yet still picks up the wrong lead. It isn’t every time, of course, maybe 1/10 on average, but it’s often enough that I have to cross my fingers each time to hope we get the correct lead 🫣 It seems like we should be beyond this. I get lessons sometimes from a woman who tells me it’s my timing that’s off, and I’m not asking at the right point in the trot stride. I believe her, but I also think there’s no way everyone else in the world is asking their horse to canter at the perfect point in the stride. I’ve also never paid attention to that on my previous horses and never struggled with leads (beyond the first bit of cantering under saddle of course).
It’s a bit embarrassing that we’re still having this issue.
Any thoughts?

I can tell you right now that I DON’T ask my horses at the right point in the trot stride. And I don’t (on purpose) because when I’m at a show, I might get into a position where I need to ask for a canter at a specific location, and I don’t have any wiggle room to make sure they are on the right trot stride first. I aim to make my horses a bit self-reliant, in a way, so that they can “make it happen” when they know what needs to happen. Or, perhaps you get to the point where you are asking for that canter from a stop. Obviously then your trot stride has nothing to do with it because your horse is standing still.

With that said, I do ride Western most of the time but I do also ride English as well. The basic fundamentals are the same.

I agree with the others that it comes down to FEEL. You can feel when the horse has their body in the correct position … or when they don’t and they are going to miss. So I’m not paying attention to what stride they are on. I am paying attention to how their body FEELS.

And they might feel correct in that moment, but 1/2 second later I missed my chance if I didn’t cue them for the canter right away. That happens for sure. So not only is it a matter of FEEL, but it is a matter of your TIMING.

Or can their be other little things - are you (without knowing it) releasing one rein a bit before you ask your horse for the canter? Or are you shifting your weight? We do these little tiny things all the time that we don’t even realize we are doing, and it makes a big difference to the horse. So usually when my horse did something wrong, the first thing I am asking myself is “What did I do wrong to cause that?”

I have found it very, very helpful to VIDEO yourself. Then you can go back in slow motion and watch yourself and see what you did that you didn’t realize you were doing.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Reading a lot here about the horse, and the timing of the aids, which is all good.

But there is a possibility that you are giving him conflicting aids, particularly with your weight, so that he isn’t quite certain what lead he is supposed to take. I think, for example, that it is easy when grappling with youngsters to emphasize your leg or rein aids so much that your seatbones end up in the wrong place. Or you concentrate on bend so much that you end up with flexion in the neck, but the hind end falls out.

Whenever I’m not getting something consistently with a young horse, I always check my own aids. Of course, I start them all on the longe, so they know how to pick up the correct lead on a circle. If your horse always takes the correct lead on the longe, you’ll know that you are giving him mixed signals and you just need to figure out which ones. Good luck.

[BrownDerby]

@Kyrabee

Another exercise which is really good for strength is trot-canter-trot transitions on a circle. Initially, don’t worry about getting it just right…just get it. If the wrong lead, quietly go back to trot and ask again.

I like your advice to carry on and try again. It does not seem to be the OP’s situation but I’ll chime in. The rider’s reaction to getting the “wrong” lead is very important, imo, No scolding or verbal frustration, no stopping and thus rewarding the wrong effort. The rider asked for the canter, and the horse gave the canter and now the horse wonders what on earth you want.