Struggling With Career Choice

[RooTheDay]

@Demerara_Stables

Sorry but this just isn’t true. There are a LOT of people out there that will pay top dollar, allowing their trainer to turn a profit, that 1) don’t necessary want to be “highly competitive” and 2) don’t want to take any shortcuts or do anything to their horses that you(g) wouldn’t do to your own special pet heart horse.

I think it would be fair to describe the Traveling Horse Witch’s audience in the way you have above.

In her case, of course, she thinks very highly of her own skills while holding no accolades or credentials ordinarily recognized in the trade. She seems rarely to be much inclined to learn from others. She purports to put the horse first while doing things that other experienced horsefolk recognize as suboptimal or actively harmful. And she spends a lot of time self-promoting.

So the question is: Are the horses of those who select her really, truly getting the best possible outcome, even as their owners truly intend for them to and believe that they are, and possibly even as the Traveling Horse Witch herself genuinely drinks her own Kool-Aid?

Me, I’d say no based on the outcomes I’ve seen. But that’s just me. Regardless, I’m reminded of a certain quote: “Every difficult problem has an answer that is simple, intuitively obvious, and wrong.”

[Demerara_Stables]

@RooTheDay

I think it would be fair to describe the Traveling Horse Witch’s audience in the way you have above.

In her case, of course, she thinks very highly of her own skills while holding no accolades or credentials ordinarily recognized in the trade. She seems rarely to be much inclined to learn from others.

I don’t know who this person is you are referring to but I think if she is

@RooTheDay

doing things that other experienced horsefolk recognize as suboptimal or actively harmful.

then I would argue that she is not, in fact, putting the horses first. But I’m not going to pretend to know anything about someone else’s program who I don’t even know of, let alone have met in person or seen horses that they have worked with. 🤷

[NoSuchPerson]

@Demerara_Stables

Sorry but this just isn’t true. There are a LOT of people out there that will pay top dollar, allowing their trainer to turn a profit, that 1) don’t necessary want to be “highly competitive” and 2) don’t want to take any shortcuts or do anything to their horses that you(g) wouldn’t do to your own special pet heart horse.

I will chime in to agree with this. When I moved, I looked at 6-7 different boarding facilities. I ended up at one that is exactly as @Demerara_Stables described. I am definitely paying “top dollar” and the barns are full. There is no shortage of people here who are willing to pay top dollar for this kind of boarding.

[albytb]

I agree with this too but I do think it can be location/discipline dependent.

My barn owner is also extremely wealthy off of running summer camps, a homeschool program, teaching up downs, etc. Her original model was “no boarders” due to the lack of profit in that but she’s done so well that she opened a second facility for boarders and now more opportunities for her to make money with hosting shows, clinics, etc etc. It’s not an A/AA barn and there’s trainers catering to hunter/jumper, eventing, dressage… it’s busy and people are happy. Probably 50 school horses total between the 2 facilities. It’s not prestigious, but the horse care is good and the boarders are happy. She’s one hell of a business woman.

[Lost_Shoe]

I just have to chime in to say, no one becomes “extremely wealthy” or even semi-wealthy from the horse business. Horse businesses are frequently used as a tool by some wealthy people to lose money for tax purposes and/or simply because horses are their passion. The overhead (maintenance, repairs, taxes, insurance, etc.) eats the profits of horse facilities. Also, people can construct horse facilities by obtaining construction loans, and that debt then needs to be serviced, adding to the overhead. Same for purchasing all the land and equipment: it can all be purchased through loans. Unless you (g) see the books, you (g) do not know if someone is leveraged to the hilt. Owning multiple nice horse facilities is not evidence of wealth; if it was all obtained through debt, the owner’s net worth could be negative, and again, there is no way to know unless you (g) are their spouse or accountant.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Lost_Shoe

people can construct horse facilities by obtaining construction loans, and that debt then needs to be serviced, adding to the overhead. Same for purchasing all the land and equipment: it can all be purchased through loans. Unless you (g) see the books, you (g) do not know if someone is leveraged to the hilt. Owning multiple nice horse facilities is not evidence of wealth; if it was all obtained through debt, the owner’s net worth could be negative, and again, there is no way to know unless you (g) are their spouse or accountant.

Absolutely. Everyone’s path to profitability is different. In my area of the country, almost all (I’d guess 80-90%) of trainers lease stalls at large facilities from separate owners. In other parts of the country, that’s simply not an option, so trainers have to come up with the capital or take out loans to buy land and build a barn.

Owning a facility can be profitable, if done correctly, and that usually means with the advise of a financial advisor, or some really good planning on your part. Lastly, there’s a very true saying “you have to spend money to make money.” If you’re freelancing and driving around to different facilities to ride, maybe that means you need a newer, reliable vehicle or your own truck/trailer to take clients to shows. Maybe a few different saddles that fit different horses. If you’re building a facility, that means loans for land, equipment, and building the facility itself. The key is managing your spend and figuring out either how much cash you have or making sure you can make those loan payments in a way that allows you to pay them off over time after calculating your realistic income from your first horse through your 20th.

[GigiBecker]

I’d like to chime in with a couple of stories. I know one person who built a boarding/lesson barn with her friend in her early 20s. Her partner was a bit of a jerk to most but that’s irrelevant. Sure, Mary taught a lot of kids and took them to shows, but enough wanted to go to rated shows that Mary could also show at a huge discount. As those kids grew some became very good and other people with money wanted Mary to train their horses or their kids on very nice horses or help them find their nice new horse. Now Mary is training out of another barn and actively shows. Along the way she has been able to purchase and develop some nice horses. She’s quite happy.

Another friend is a dressage trainer who has trained and shown through GP and had a very successful top level show career. Probably this is because her Mom is a top GP rider/trainer/judge and was very involved in the sport. So is my friend. My friend built a very successful business where she had wealthy clients on nice imports, many of whom had my friend train those horses, and some clients purchased WBs specifically for her to ride and show. Sounds great, doesn’t it! She ended up ending her business because barn help was so unreliable , keeping the business going was getting too expensive, and she didn’t want to keep upping prices because she thought her clients were paying enough. She held a tack sale and sold most of her tack. She told me she was taking 6 months off to do nothing and then decide what she wanted to do.

Lastly, I’ll tell you about another friend who got a great start in her late 20s. She was showing/training OK in the use. She accepted an offer from a US rider on the circuit in Germany to be her groom - no riding. That was clear upfront. But the rider told my friend that if she did the job well, she’d try her best to hook her up with a German trainer for a riding position before she came back to the states. My friend accepted and was a groom. But then got position as an assistant trainer with an Olympian in Germany for a bit. That experience and the connections she made there changed so much for her training business here in the US,

I wanted to say that you just don’t know where life will take you and you kind of have to go with what makes you happy NOW, not what you once thought made you happy. Even those who “had it all” to those of us on the outside were frustrated enough to do something different. You have a business degree, you can try to hook up with a lesson barn that wants to be more than what it is but doesn’t know how to get there? Or use your business skills to work in some other part of the horse industry? Or have a primary job and teach/show on the side like and eventing friend I know? She teaches and shows pretty successfully through advanced on a OTTB she trained herself (well, showed, she leased him out when she was pregnant).

Sorry this is so long! Many people grapple with career choices throughout their lives. You aren’t alone.

[Bending_Line]

Are you pretty fresh out of college?

There will be dues paying in any profession. It might be helpful to read about people like Laura Kraut, Kent Farrington, Nick Hanness, etc., and what they did to get where they are in terms of riding anything and everything under the sun. Have you thought about being a working student for a trainer you really respect? Could you supplement the work you were doing at the second barn with clinics with top trainers, or bringing along your own horses on the side? Did you demonstrate that you could develop a horse up the divisions, and then do it on a variety of horses? That would surely get you noticed anywhere.

If you have a passion for horses, you do need to reflect on something as simple as what it would mean to be indoors all day…behind a computer…etc. There can be plusses and minuses but you have to ask yourself if you are constitutionally equipped to handle office life.

Office life is going to involve dues paying, as well, and depending on the profession, it may take years to earn the chance to have big time responsibility. Horses or otherwise, for a real career with staying power, there really isn’t going to be any way around the obligation to spend time in the trenches, hopefully learning from mentors you respect. There are very few overnight sensations in any industry. Have to work hard and hopefully find something where the day in and day out of the work itself is gratifying, even if it is not glamorous initially. It’ going to take patience and giving the positions a real chance.

I have had good professional success outside horses but it’s at the expense of getting to ride much or show at all due to the time commitment. I have lived the other life where it’s all horses, all the time, with no stability and walking a tightrope all the time. Maybe you can find a middle ground, like nursing, that gives you a reasonable schedule and reasonable income and lets you ride. Having lived both extremes, I vote for the professional success outside horses, and riding less than I would like, because the continual financial stress of trying to support horses with just horses can really eat at you. That said, I have to have animals and outdoors in my life as I would literally shrivel up and die inside if stuck in an urban apartment or office all the time.

I would encourage you to set goals that are based on incremental improvements and not just some eventual end goal of riding fame. If the process of gradual incremental improvements is not rewarding in and of itself, it might be time to think about a career switch to something where the necessary dues paying does not feel like drudgery or spinning your wheels–hopefully you find something where you enjoy putting the building blocks of a career together.

[Lost_Shoe]

The current show structure in the U.S. is set up in a way that is maximally beneficial for trainers and the advancement of trainers’ showing and riding skills. At each weeklong show, the trainers ride and show the clients’ horses during the week in the open classes while the clients are busy with work and other responsibilities, and grooms care for the horses at the show and at home. The clients show on the weekend in the amateur classes. This provides the optimal opportunity for the trainer to ride and show horses on someone’s else’s tab, and also to facilitate clients purchasing horses that would be too much horse for the clients if they were on their own and not in a wraparound program, resulting in the trainer having horses in their barn that are more athletic than would otherwise be feasible. This allows the trainer to jump athletic horses nearly every day, which is beneficial for anyone with dreams and ambitions in the jumper ring.

Riding and especially jumping are perishable skills: you use them or lose them; yes, one can re-gain their eye/core strength/nerve, but it does take time if you are out of the game for a while. The formula of showing clients’ nice horses is a way for trainers to practice over low jumps, which is much more beneficial for any aspiring jumper rider than not jumping at all.

Horse shows are structured to be tailored to set up trainers, and their clients who can afford them, up for success. Everyone else (people on a budget, people who just want to get show ring mileage on young horses, etc.) either has to pay to play or take a hike. So, for people who want to show, this is an ideal time to be a trainer or a rich client, and a poor time to be anyone else.

OP, it seems you have decided to leave the horse industry, and that is fine, but my word of caution is that it may mean placing your horse show goals on ice for a while. Good luck!

[hunterjumper100]

Thanks for your input! I haven’t fully decided which direction to go in, but I am in no place financially to be able to be a head trainer and start my own barn right now. So I guess I’m not sure what the best next stepping stone is for me, if I do stick with horses as a career. I also live about an hour away from any barns right now so the drive would be pretty bad in the mornings and I value my weekends and having actual time off, which isn’t usually an option at most barns when you’re not the head trainer.

[punchy]

@hunterjumper100

I also live about an hour away from any barns right now so the drive would be pretty bad in the mornings and I value my weekends and having actual time off, which isn’t usually an option at most barns when you’re not the head trainer.

I don’t know any head trainers who take off weekends. Time off is short and rare. Honestly the only people I know with careers in the horse industry eat/breathe/sleep horse industry and don’t think twice about driving an hour to the barn. So if that’s not what your into—sounds like it’s not—better to realize that sooner rather than later.

[Scribbler]

@Lost_Shoe

The current show structure in the U.S. is set up in a way that is maximally beneficial for trainers and the advancement of trainers’ showing and riding skills. At each weeklong show, the trainers ride and show the clients’ horses during the week in the open classes while the clients are busy with work and other responsibilities, and grooms care for the horses at the show and at home. The clients show on the weekend in the amateur classes. This provides the optimal opportunity for the trainer to ride and show horses on someone’s else’s tab, and also to facilitate clients purchasing horses that would be too much horse for the clients if they were on their own and not in a wraparound program, resulting in the trainer having horses in their barn that are more athletic than would otherwise be feasible. This allows the trainer to jump athletic horses nearly every day, which is beneficial for anyone with dreams and ambitions in the jumper ring.

Riding and especially jumping are perishable skills: you use them or lose them; yes, one can re-gain their eye/core strength/nerve, but it does take time if you are out of the game for a while. The formula of showing clients’ nice horses is a way for trainers to practice over low jumps, which is much more beneficial for any aspiring jumper rider than not jumping at all.

Horse shows are structured to be tailored to set up trainers, and their clients who can afford them, up for success. Everyone else (people on a budget, people who just want to get show ring mileage on young horses, etc.) either has to pay to play or take a hike. So, for people who want to show, this is an ideal time to be a trainer or a rich client, and a poor time to be anyone else.

OP, it seems you have decided to leave the horse industry, and that is fine, but my word of caution is that it may mean placing your horse show goals on ice for a while. Good luck!

This is true at the A level week long h/j shows.

It’s not true of the lower levels where you have weekend shows. Where I live, outside of the Rolex Invitational or whatever international Grand Prix hits Thunderbird about twice a year, you’d be hard pressed to find a h/j show with anything above a meter, and most contestants don’t go over two foot nine.

A couple of barns might go down to Thermal etc for several weeks in winter but the clients are not jumping high (I have Googled results)

If your junior or ammie client base is competing at the 2 foot 6 and 2 foot 9 levels, they aren’t giving you access to 4 foot horses

I did at one point meet and watch some local people who were on the Grand Prix circuit, but they were a small group and pretty much invisible within the local horse community. Their focus was Spruce Meadows and beyond.

Now there may be more clients in that category in wealthy parts of the US. But the OP walked away from the Grand Prix level barn for reasons, then was happy but stalled out at a typical junior barn.

That last barn was a good match for the OPs skills and experience but they experienced the low ceiling of opportunities for themselves. But OP can’t be a Grand Prix trainer without Grand Prix experience and can’t fund that experience. Leading to a stalemate.

[Scribbler]

@punchy

@hunterjumper100

I also live about an hour away from any barns right now so the drive would be pretty bad in the mornings and I value my weekends and having actual time off, which isn’t usually an option at most barns when you’re not the head trainer.

I don’t know any head trainers who take off weekends. Time off is short and rare. Honestly the only people I know with careers in the horse industry eat/breathe/sleep horse industry and don’t think twice about driving an hour to the barn. So if that’s not what your into—sounds like it’s not—better to realize that sooner rather than later.

You can’t have weekends off if your business model requires showing and competing. You work when your clients have time off work to pursue their hobby with you!

Typically show barns used to have Mondays as a downtime day, I understand

[luvmyhackney]

@hunterjumper100

I value my weekends and having actual time off, which isn’t usually an option at most barns when you’re not the head trainer.

This is why you will struggle.

As a paying client, my trainer is available to give me lessons when I have availability. As a busy professional in corporate America, if you want my money, you will accommodate as I can’t take off working hours due to my workload. That means I lesson after 4:00 PM or weekends.

My current trainer takes a weekday off vs a weekend as weekends are for clients.

[hunterjumper100]

Yep I fully get that! And I know it’s just part of the horse biz, but I think that’s the main reason I want to at least explore a career with a better work/life balance and ride in my free time instead!

[SadieRidingHorses]

@Djones

Without naming names, there are some omissions in this thread worth knowing.

Any bootstraps story should thank any glaring advantages that were adjacent to said pulling.

Just want to second this - you’ve received some overall excellent advice, but take bootstrap stories with a grain of salt - wealthy spouses and in-laws might be closer than they appear! (Says the adult amateur who could afford horses without her spouse, but it would look very different, for sure (or I would have to change my day job).

[PonyPenny]

What I have also learned from those who make it without the large purse strings is talent. No amount of hard work will give you that. Yes, you can learn to ride, but those who get offered the opportunities have talent that is apparent at an early age. They are the ones who get catch rides as juniors which leads to opportunities as an adult.

[kaya842]

@hunterjumper100

I value my weekends and having actual time off,

Sounds like a corporate job is the job for you

I wanted to work with horses since forever. I always dreamed of running my own barn, with the focus more on riding vs teaching (teaching is most certainly a skill that I do not possess). And I did work in horses for years, about 6-8 years. I did pretty much everything: several working student roles, several barn hand roles, some teaching roles, a riding role, worked in breeding, and grooming roles (several were a combination). While I loved the horses (and still do), after working corporate for the past 6 years you will have to pry my Corp job out of my cold dead hands. Is my job cool? Nope. Do I have to work inside on nice days when I’d rather ride? OF COURSE. But you know what is super cool that I didn’t get working with horses? A regular schedule, every night and weekend off, paid time off and lots of it, a 40 hour(actually 37.5 if full time for my company) work week, over time if I work more than that, HEALTH INSURANCE!, a retirement plan, the ability to get bonuses and raises, a path forward for growing my career, working in the AC/ heat and out of the rain, etc etc.

My corp job also allowed me to buy a house and pay off some of my student loans (which were taken out for a horse degree ironically) which would have never been possible with horse job pay.

My skills learned from my time working with horses have given me opportunities at my boarding barn to ride other horses for free and give me more flexibility with the BO as she recognizes I know what I’m doing/ have done this before. She’s also offered for me to teach but again it’s not my forte. If I could go back, I would have started in the corp world earlier so that I wouldn’t have had to spend time paying off debts racked up from working in the horse world.

[sherian]

@luvmyhackney

As a paying client, my trainer is available to give me lessons when I have availability. As a busy professional in corporate America, if you want my money, you will accommodate as I can’t take off working hours due to my workload. That means I lesson after 4:00 PM or weekends.

this ^ you have to match your schedule to your clients who have to work to pay you. I’m a farrier, most of my clients keep their horses at home, they are often busy with life on weekends so I work a lot of evenings

[SpicyPRE]

@SadieRidingHorses

Just want to second this - you’ve received some overall excellent advice, but take bootstrap stories with a grain of salt - wealthy spouses and in-laws might be closer than they appear!

Exactly. Having the $$ to fund a facility/program and supporting yourself AND the facility/program are 2 very different things!