Lol. Oh I do agree.
But from a legal perspective it’s interesting. There are a lot of loop holes and ambiguity…there is supposed to be a Power Imbalance but what that is can be very open to debate (and presumed to exist in a student/coach situation) and no Consent…but what is or isn’t consent is open to interpretation as well. SS also goes much further beyond sexual conduct. There are certainly good things but part of me just dislikes attempted codification of deceny etc.
Yes, that is my question (obviously not talking about instances with minors). The coach in this situation would technically be the employee. They are being paid by the student to perform a service (coaching). So who really is in the position of power?
Doesn’t anyone here own a business? Your insurance people will read you the riot act about this stuff. This is all very well spelled out.
I do not. If you know the answers to the questions posed, please feel free to enlighten us.
Well here is the rub. How many clients actually realize the coach works for them and act accordingly?
The parents paying for it? Riding is a bit different where we pay our coaches, but look at all other sports. The coaches clearly are in the power role.
The financial arrangement in Equestrian sport is just a bit different. And a lot of these students are working students.
I disagree. Your relationship with a trainer is not that of employer to employee, but student to teacher. They do not work for you, although you are free to drop out or transfer any time you like.
The teacher is absolutely in the power position.
I’ve seen clients with assloads of money who supply the great horses and are totally on the upper side of the client-trainer power dynamic. I’ve seen trainers who supply the skill and the training and show-winning rides that the client so very very desperately want and would do anything for.
I suppose one could hypothesize about a business relationship on relatively equal footing but I still think the only answer to that is to stay as far away of mixing intimacy and business as possible.
Not to mention that it makes things a lot weirder for everyone else there. I’ve only recently gotten a bunch of ancient history of this sort of stuff going on in a barn I frequented when I was a kid, and I’m really glad I was mostly oblivious, because I was terrible with people to start with and would have just been more confused. Even now I’m wondering in retrospect if it explains some of my “adults are really confusing” moments there.
But there is no generic definition of the power dynamic between trainer and student that can be applied to all situations.
In the example I referenced, these were not working students. They were adult amateurs who spent A LOT of money on training board, lessons, etc. No major riding aspirations, just people who had time and money to burn on a hobby. And they were major pieces of what made the trainer’s business sustainable.
I stress again here that I am not talking about situations where a minor is involved.
^^^ I disagree. The people spending that money tend to work with trainers who are even less your employee.
Most people with 1/2 a brain and a thimble of confidence. I’ve walked away from very popular and BNT before when they crossed the lines and forgot that I was a customer 1st and one who had a LOT of good choices for alternative service providers. In this case it was seeing through someone’s BS not sexual in nature. But I don’t think it is even a question…a trainer is providing NON critical services. They are not picking a team that you have to be on to participate in the sport.
And you don’t need them at all to enter an event. “Trainer” on your entry forms is NOT who take lessons from but who is in charge of the care of the horse. So who will get tagged if there is a drug violation on the horse. A pro competes one of my horses…I sign as trainer because the horse lives on my farm with me…I’m not teaching them or coaching them.
But Power dynamics are hard to define and regulate…Safe Sport tries to make a definition but it will be very open to interpretation. That was my point.
And yes…VERY bad and stupid idea to sleep with your customers/students (and people who work for you or with you or as your boss…just say no) but Not uncommon and things can get messy with those situations.
:yes:
Ain’t that the truth regardless of where you are in your life and who the other party is or their relationship to you 
This, you are paying for a service, there should be mutual respect on both sides.
The trainer is teaching you yes, but you are also a customer.
Agree, and as far as the courts are concerned this point is already decided. Dr. Larry Nassar was paid well for his services by the parents of the gymnasts he molested on a routine basis. It’s also worth pointing out that many of them did not come forward for years, and even not until others had already opened the door.
The cases in the list of USEF Safe Sport are not court cases. But the principal is already established. The paid provider can most definitely be in the power position in certain circumstances.
This. We cannot equate training/coaching with standard education. We HIRE them. Therefore they do work for us. If the product does not work for us, we move on. At the end of the day the horse industry would do well to run more like an average business.
Mutual respect does not equal equality. I respect all of my students, but they are students, not equals. My colleagues are equals in the field, and those people I go to learn from are my superiors: they direct, I follow, and I pay them because they are acknowledged authorities.
Of course if you or I are unhappy with the instruction, we are free to leave. We are also free to bad mouth trainers as we so choose, but a trainer is hired to provide services which we agree to when signing on as a student or for horse training. If you want to dictate what services a trainer provide you with, you’re apt to end up with a trainer who has less horse skills than talking skills. I think that’s how a lot of people get taken. If you don’t trust that your trainer knows more than you, and you’re paying them for their expertise, probably time to find a new trainer.
but on topic, trainers are in the power position. We empower them. They are recognized and compensated authorities.
This discussion took a very interesting turn! I’m glad power dynamics came up.
I think that each discipline has its own dynamic in terms of who is in the position of power. I know hunter/jumper people tend to treat their trainer’s demands like the gospel, while every dressage trainer that I have ever met has had at least one [if not several] client(s) who routinely terrorize them and remind them that they are responsible for the pro’s ability to keep lights on in the barn and a roof over their head. Dressage clients are very much in control, and if you think about your typical dressage rider, it makes a lot of sense.
Eventers can usually be found in the middle of that spectrum and that’s why people in this discussion are making valid arguments for both sides. To event you have to be savvy enough with your horsemanship that it is difficult for a trainer to pull wool over anyone’s eyes. At the same time, eventing is significantly more dangerous than dressage so navigating eventing competition and courses is complicated enough that most ammys do truly need a professional with them. Hence they rely on trainers to get home safe and that is probably where sneaky trainers can start to develop leverage.
As for my personal stance, I employ my trainer. She is not a “compensated authority,” whatever that means. She has skills that I do not have, and I recognize that I am not her “equal” as a rider but the nature of the transaction is the same as me paying my landscaper or my equine massage lady. I pay her for her service (a lesson) and as long as I am satisfied with her work, I will have another lesson the next week. And that’s all there is to it.
The comparison of disciplines is so true.
It feels like there a culture of dependency in the H/J world, where trainers are in command and dictate the horse/rider’s program. Then in eventing, I feel there is much more independence because yes, the jumps are more trappy, and you have to think for yourself. People warm their horses up themselves, they don’t have a trainer get on to do it, etc.
I think there is a definite difference in the “power” relationship between an adult student/client and trainer versus a child or teenager and trainer.
An adult is typically paying their own bills, owns their own horse, and can very easily go elsewhere for instruction if things don’t seem right.
A junior, on the other hand, typically doesn’t pay the bills her/himself; it’s usually the parents that do, so the rider has less control over the situation, especially if things are involved that they don’t feel comfortable talking about, or if they’re afraid they might lose the ride on a certain horse. Kids are also generally expected to obey their teachers do as they say in any situation, whereas adults are much freer to say “no” without repercussions. This dynamic probably also applies to young adults who aren’t technically minors but often still have parents paying the bills, etc.
I do think it’s a bit scary that SafeSport seemingly also applies to a fully consensual relationship between a trainer and adult student because of the supposed “power” differential (I realize that, although the details were deleted, that does NOT seem to be what was going on with the original person in question of this thread… this is a side note). While I think it’s generally a horrible idea from a professional standpoint for a trainer to get romantically involved with an adult student, and likely to end in a mess … I also think it’s a little disconcerting to a label that person as a “predator” for making a bad decision.
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