Stuck in a rut with my OTTB- bucking while mountins

Sometimes when you baby a horse you are really teaching them that they have control of the situation and are dominant over you. Over time, a once well mannered horse becomes ill mannered because that horse has been taught that he controls the situation and the person reacts to whatever the horse does, instead of the horse reacting to the person. Once the horse has been placed in the decision making position, that horse can become spooky and reactive because the horse is not comfortable with being the leader.

Fixing a problem is not like getting your car repaired. Most horses need regular work and consistent training to remain well mannered both on the ground and under saddle. OP needs to commit to understanding horse behavior and cognitive functioning a little better or she will continue to encounter problems if she does not change how she interacts with the horse.

Hear, hear Crowne Dragon. Even if your saddle hasn’t changed, your horse has as you’ve ridden him more. Mounting may cause too much pressure to be put on the right side of the spine. It’s transient, so you may well not find soreness on exam, but it’ll set him off because it hurts.

And because Lyme is such a chameleon disease, check that out too!

Saddle fit was the first thing I checked.

Flash44- he is not babied. I also know it’s not like fixing a car. This isn’t my first rodeo. Ground work with him has always based on ME moving HIM and me being the dominant body. I am not incompetent and please don’t assume that I am because I am seeking advice from others. I did not come here to be told I do not understand horse behavior or for negative comments, I came here to seek advice from other people’s experiences. I am working very closely with various trainers on this situation.

[QUOTE=msewhite;7350130]
Saddle fit was the first thing I checked.

Flash44- he is not babied. I also know it’s not like fixing a car. This isn’t my first rodeo. Ground work with him has always based on ME moving HIM and me being the dominant body. I am not incompetent and please don’t assume that I am because I am seeking advice from others. I did not come here to be told I do not understand horse behavior or for negative comments, I came here to seek advice from other people’s experiences. I am working very closely with various trainers on this situation.[/QUOTE]

Good for you, sticking up for yourself.
Too bad IrishHunter doesn’t live close by. Maybe just getting bucked out would make the difference. Could be something legit started the first buck fest and now he thinks its fun? Congrats on being brave and sticking with him. Good luck, I hope you figure him out soon. Horses I have worked with in the past sometimes are bratty with one person just because they can, and not with someone else. Cowboy or whoever, if you can find somebody who can just ride it out of him, maybe that will do the trick. Hang in there:)

OP, I don’t understand why you seem so sure that this is either a behavior thing or something that a chiropractor can help. Horses can suffer from a lot of things that can only be diagnosed or addressed by a VET. I’ve not seen any mention of having the vet look at him. I think you are doing him a major disservice if you are not planning to have him looked at by a vet.

I agree with whoever said that being sent to a cowboy could be very traumatic for a horse like this, particularly if he is in pain, which I REALLY think it sounds like he is.

No one is suggesting that you are not competent because you are asking for advice. We all ask for advice from time to time. That’s how you come up with different possible approaches that may help you. But people have given you some good ideas, and the only one you seem to think is worthwhile is testing for Lyme and then having him seen again by a chiropractor who obviously didn’t “fix” whatever the problem was in prior visits.

I’m not suggesting that you take every bit of advice that you get on COTH. Not only would that be a bad idea, it would also be an enormously expensive one. But I AM asking you to at least consider that you are wrong about him not being in pain. Horses do not just flip a switch in their six year old year for no reason, and a horse that is reacting as dramatically as this one is is really, really, truly, probably in pain. Literally EVERY time I’ve dealt with a horse that suddenly takes to doing something over the top like this, it has turned out to be pain, even if it wasn’t obvious from the beginning.

I agree with saddle fit. I had a major issue with one trainers saddle after two rides…everyone said it fit. Went back to old saddle, new trainer had a saddle fitter come out and no more back issues. Not everyone really understands saddle fit, and your horse has changed in the last 5 months.

Hope you can solve this, with my own OTTB saddle fit was a major issue but it did resolve.

FineAlready- My chiro is a vet. I forgot to mention this, sorry I didn’t make it clear. I thought I had added it in. I am also the assistant for a very well know vet at a very well known Thoroughbred farm. It’s not like I haven’t consulted and had him looked at, I have. Pain is something that is obviously very highly considered for the source of his behavior. It’s on the top of the list. But no source of pain has been found. I promise you that the well-being of this horse is SO important to me which is why I am still giving him a chance after severely injuring me twice and almost paralyzing me.

this may not be a popular view, but imo, a person’s safety and well being comes before a horse. Assuming you do rule out pain, lyme, ulcers etc, then the only thing left is training with a cowboy. Or what other options are there? Permanent turn out/early retirement? Euthansia? Rehome him with disclosure of the problem (I don’t like last option as who knows if second owner would care about him like you do or also get hurt)

If you send him to cowboy, assuming THEY feel comfortable taking on the risk, see how he progresses. If you are never going to be sure of him aka that he might repeat this, then choose yourself over the horse.

Sometimes we do our best vet screening, training, etc, and a horse , for unknown reasons, gets a vice and then it is hard to trust them again…

I suppose there are relatively defensive ways to mount that might help…perhaps break away stirrups and adding a bucking strap. A taller block lets you get into the saddle much quicker and cuts down on the time one spends up and over.
Again, best of luck dealing with a difficult situation. .

Because you have stated you’ve had the saddle fit checked and the chiro/vet out/some tests run, here is one more suggestion:

Have you or anyone else tried giving you a leg up on him? I wonder how he would react to that?

Good for your for sticking with him. I’m sending positive thoughts your way and hope you find some answers (SAFELY!) soon :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=msewhite;7350370]
FineAlready- My chiro is a vet. I forgot to mention this, sorry I didn’t make it clear. I thought I had added it in. I am also the assistant for a very well know vet at a very well known Thoroughbred farm. It’s not like I haven’t consulted and had him looked at, I have. Pain is something that is obviously very highly considered for the source of his behavior. It’s on the top of the list. But no source of pain has been found. I promise you that the well-being of this horse is SO important to me which is why I am still giving him a chance after severely injuring me twice and almost paralyzing me.[/QUOTE]

Got it. That makes sense. I’ve been through some really tough behavioral problems with my horse, most of which could be linked to pain or discomfort of some kind eventually. Actually, putting him on a high fat/low sugar diet helped a TON. A lot of his problems turned out to be muscle tightness, and it took FOREVER to figure it out. He was definitely dangerous at some points. Sending him to a cowboy would have completely and irreparably ruined him, of this I am sure.

When he was at his most difficult, I did a lot of ground work and some lunging with him. To Countrywood’s point, I think there is a way to slowly work with a horse through things like this without sending them to someone who will cowboy them for you. I don’t suggest putting yourself at further risk, OP, but I personally would probably really try to figure out what is going on with him from a trigger standpoint (discomfort, or other) and then take him back several steps to his comfort zone and work slowly from there.

I had to mount my TB making sure my left leg didn’t “jab” him, I never sat down on his back (until we were 10 or 12 steps out). I never let my left toe rotate into his side when mounting. I stuck it parallel to his saddle.
(He did have a situation similar to yours early on. He was great mounting until I went on vacation and student rode him. Result= Bucking bronco. Got the best trainer to un-train him.

Horse retired early anyway… kissing spines, chips in fetlock. So, his sensitivity was probably effected by all of those things.

[QUOTE=msewhite;7350130]
Saddle fit was the first thing I checked.

Flash44- he is not babied. I also know it’s not like fixing a car. This isn’t my first rodeo. Ground work with him has always based on ME moving HIM and me being the dominant body. I am not incompetent and please don’t assume that I am because I am seeking advice from others. I did not come here to be told I do not understand horse behavior or for negative comments, I came here to seek advice from other people’s experiences. I am working very closely with various trainers on this situation.[/QUOTE]

I went from h/j to race horses and now I cowboy. It appears to me that your horse has been taken outside his comfort zone and learned that he can respond by bucking you off. You appear to have had him checked for a physical reason for being uncomfortable, but did not find one. So the working conclusion would be a mental issue. If something like mounting causes such an extreme pain reaction, the vet/chiro probably would have found it. Take him outside his comfort zone and continue with your groundwork. Maybe you need to haul him around and do groundwork in other places to see if he really is paying attention and learning. Have him walk over tarps, drag them over him, walk him in hand with a tarp dragging next to him. Up the ante on the ground to see how he handles things before getting back on him. I had one really grouchy horse that would buck and rear when I got on her. My solution was to work her hard on the ground, and get on her and let her walk and relax. Then get off and work hard on the ground. She soon got real happy for me to put my foot in the stirrup. You will win a mental conflict, the horse will win a physical conflict so you have to out think him.

I would describe myself as a mediocre rider and have my share of falls, hurt etc. One thing I am a bit fanatical about is mounting. I use a higher block because I am short. A taller block benefits almost anyone. The higher step means not only are you higher and thus get on faster, you are not pulling yourself up by the saddle and can put one hand on middle of saddle to stabilize it.

I get on quickly and look up between their ears as I get on. I expect any horse to take off or act out at any moment and try to figure if I would slide off, or stay on depending on where I am. I also train my horse to stay still after I get on. I don’t let him move off till I ask him too. Of course, after that, all kinds of problems and evasions set in, lol, but I have a protocol for mounting. I also never get right on the days he feels very “up”, or tense or stiff… I hand walk him around when he feels like that before getting on and wait till he seems more calm and relaxed.

And where I mount is not quiet…we board at a race horse (trotter) barn, they are zooming around the track, trucks dropping off shavings, people going by on bikes, etc. So I really make sure he feels quiet before I make him stand.

[QUOTE=BigBayHanoMare;7348488]
Kissing spine is the first thing that comes to mind after reading the OP.[/QUOTE]

My exact same thought. The OP needs to have X-rays done of his back and a full lameness work-up. He may not be “lame” per say but something is hurting somewhere and he’s trying to tell the OP something. This is from someone who has an OTTB with no issues (absolutely nothing) the first four years who then became a horse with serious issues while under saddle (thankfully nothing remotely dangerous). I took her in to a hospital and had a full work-up done on her including back X-rays which revealed the Kissing Spines.

Similar problem with my OTTB

I had a very similar problem with my 6 year old gelding. I restarted him after not being ridden for 2 years (had to have sinus surgery and let down out to pasture for a long time to settle.) For the first few months, about 4 months, he was perfect on the ground and for me to work under saddle. I moved him to a new barn and he became a bronco! I didn’t know what to do! He put me on the ground every day for two weeks. I was not seriously hurt but wasn’t going to take the chance to get there. I sent him to a cowboy and he worked WONDERS! He taught me to work a lot on getting him to pay attention to me and not being a jerk. We worked on flexing left and right at the mounting block and turning his head all the way toward me as I got on. He then had to keep his head turned to my knee and make small circles to the left until he relaxed. We worked in tiny circles at the walk for a long time until he realized he wasn’t going to get away with anything.

It was a long boring process of just walking for weeks, it felt like we had made a huge backslide since he had been cantering and jumping small fences but it was worth it. It is nearly impossible for a horse to buck and bronc with their head bent to the side.

My horse is also cold backed so he has to walk in hand for a few minutes before I can even think about getting on him, some days if he is really snarky or it is cold he lunges for 5-10 minutes before I mount (always with his head turned towards me.)

Sorry for the long post but I hope this helps. I have been there and I hope it works out, I didn’t give up on mine either :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=msewhite;7347019]
So I’ve had my 2008 gelding named Mr. Heavy for 9 months, and they have been WONDERFUL. He was so eager and SO brave about jumping, went out cross country the first time and jumped everything I asked without a bit of hesitation and is a lovely mover. Very promising and SO level headed. I’ve was so happy with him especially because he was free. This all changed at the end of September. I guess it’s really true that stressful situations bring out holes in training. While mounting at our first show (it was small and at the farm where I board him but still some tension in the air), Mr. Heavy had a major freak out like I’ve never seen from him and took off and started bucking like a professional bronc horse while I had one leg in the stirrup (aka I had NO chance of staying on). This resulted in a very serious injury for me. A broken C2 and L1. I am lucky to be able to walk. After much rehab on my part and ground work on his, I decided to get back on a few days ago. His ground work had been very productive and pulling on the stirrups/making noise/baby saddle things were no issue so I thought he was ready. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me? Luckily this time, I only have a severely pulled groin muscle and a sore shoulder.

I guess my point is who else has overcome a similar issue and what’s the best way to fix this? This is not due to saddle fit as his saddle hasn’t changed and not pain because I regularly test for soreness and have had the chiro check him over. After the second time, he was worked on the ground which he was just ok with and then looked panicked as another person laid over the saddle. It starts out as “I don’t want to stand for mounting” to “Oh, shit, why aren’t you balanced on me. TIME TO FREAK OTU!” I am thinking that there are major holes in his training and they are finally coming out. He fooled me into thinking he knew more than he did because he is just so kind by nature. I realize this can be an OTTB problem but I am weighing my options here. First and foremost, I do NOT want to hurt myself again. My first though is to send him to a “cowboy” to basically be re-broke. Based on any past experiences, will this “fix” him? Also, how have your experiences been with “cowboys” and OTTBs. His bucking is flat out dangerous and I don’t think I’ll be as lucky next time.

I’m sort of lost on what to do and do not want to give up on this horse for fear of being hurt. Sorry if this is scattered, my thoughts on the situation are so jumbled. I really like this horse and see how much potential he has.[/QUOTE]

OP, I’m glad you’ve rebounded physically. Some of the nastiest injuries I’ve seen came from horses with mounting issues.

If your confidence is damaged, then – by all means – look for a legitimate cowboy type. If you do this for fun, then getting hurt isn’t fun. And if you’re a professional, well, getting hurt means you can’t work, so if it’s beyond you then outsource to someone with a different skill set.

I have seen an adequate cowboy correct this issue. It was not dramatic at all. I don’t remember the full process, but the “trick” was hooking a back leg with a rope that went over the saddle horn and the cowboy held the length. When the cowboy put a foot up, the horse struck out and neatly set himself on the ground. The whole thing was over in less than 1/2 hour on the first day and the cowboy was bored in < 2 weeks.

I rode the horse off and on for years after that and never had a problem with him in any capacity. The owner was never comfortable with him and was seriously injured at least twice after the fix – although not in a mounting accident. Lovely horse, nice rider, terrible combination with too much history to keep going forward. I wish they had parted ways sooner than they did for everyone’s sake.

You noted that your horse seems to be set off by the “show” environment. I would imagine it’s possible he associated lots of horses and the loudspeaker as “back to the races” and reverted to any nasty habits. Not many people bother to try to step up on a runner in the morning and runners on raceday almost invariably get a jock legged up on the walk with varying degrees of drama. It’s not uncommon for horses to “need” to be mounted at the walk or for it to be standard OP for everything in a certain barn.

All that means in this case is that, if it’s my horse, I would assume that if I didn’t TEACH the animal that he must stand for mounting quietly all the time – he doesn’t know it. But you sound like you’ve had some experience with OTTBs.

That said, I have a major reputation and well-deserved reputation for just chillin at the mounting block for just this reason. We do a whole lot of standing around before we go to work.

Another vote for it being a pain issue. Before you go any further spend the money to have his back x-rayed. I’d be willing to bet you will find your issue there.

This thread is a bad memory for me. I have a lovely OTTB that I got years ago. He was supposed to be my last horse. He was 4 years old when I got him. He was turned out at a dairy farm for 8 months before his retraining started. He was a doll on the cross ties, never broke them, and he was kind to children right off the bat. He was very foot sore. The barn farrier basically told me he could not help me… flat, crumbly feet with no wall to nail a shoe to. So while I went barefoot we did tons of ground work. He loved it especially the ground driving.
He was very good at the mounting block when we rode. I did little things with him as I am not a trainer but we started well. The house trainer saw us doing well and said she would ride him for me and give me lessons.
Until one day he bolted from the block when I went to get on. Brought him back and he was fine. I had the saddle checked and found mine was pinching him so I got a new one and things were better for a while. Then It started all over again. My vet could not figure it out so I sent him for a bone scan of his back and hind legs. They suggested a couple of injections and said he should be okay as long as we were not going to do grand prix work.
Things were okay again for a while.
The house trainer would not get on him as she had been seriously hurt by a horse who was bad at the block.
So I got a great person to help me. We worked at the mounting block but some days he was good and others not. I sent him to another big university and they could not figure it out either. Eventually, we injected his back and he was great for about 9 months. He had also been treated for Lyme too!
He fell apart again and again.
It was a very long drawn out process of trying everything, feed changes, chiro, injections, saddle you name it. Nothing made him happy. so we retired him and he lives in a field… He is happy and safe.
My vet said one day I should maybe try again very slowly starting from the beginning. That mother nature can heal things we cannot. Believe me I think about it all the time…just have not done it…
I wish you luck…

Perhaps consider a custom mounting block made, and position it in an area of the barn where he Can’t run . If a mounting block faces a wall such as a barn wall, how can a horse bolt away when forward is blocked? And an extra tall mounting block, 4 steps high instead of 3, makes it much safer for the rider as they are higher over the hose and spend almost no time in the air getting on (I use a regular 3 step block but have mounted from higher blocks and they are much easier)

Another method that helps horses not spin/shy /move sideways when mounting, and I used it when training my current horse, is line up fence rails or cavaletti poles parallel to the block, forming a “lane” around 3 feet wide. That helps them stand straight parallel to the block.

However, listen to your gut. If your horse was on and off with issues and is happy in the field, perhaps let it be.

Questions: While you were healing, was this horse working? Did you let a healthy young horse chill out for months after a major wreck and then choose him for your first return to the saddle? And then he pulls a repeat performance? If that’s the case, you’re not brave, your a bit nutty.

Honestly, I feel for you, but if I were in your situations, I would have had this horse in work for at least a few weeks before I tried to mount him myself again. Especially coming back from a serious injury. If that’s water under the bridge, I would at least put him with a cowboy type now, not to re-break him, but just to get him mounted and back in work before I trusted him with my bones. Now maybe I’m just older than you and have had more confidence zapping experiences, but I would NOT have been the first person to mount this horse after that chain of events.