Stuck in a rut with my OTTB- bucking while mountins

[msewhite]

So I’ve had my 2008 gelding named Mr. Heavy for 9 months, and they have been WONDERFUL. He was so eager and SO brave about jumping, went out cross country the first time and jumped everything I asked without a bit of hesitation and is a lovely mover. Very promising and SO level headed. I’ve was so happy with him especially because he was free. This all changed at the end of September. I guess it’s really true that stressful situations bring out holes in training. While mounting at our first show (it was small and at the farm where I board him but still some tension in the air), Mr. Heavy had a major freak out like I’ve never seen from him and took off and started bucking like a professional bronc horse while I had one leg in the stirrup (aka I had NO chance of staying on). This resulted in a very serious injury for me. A broken C2 and L1. I am lucky to be able to walk. After much rehab on my part and ground work on his, I decided to get back on a few days ago. His ground work had been very productive and pulling on the stirrups/making noise/baby saddle things were no issue so I thought he was ready. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me? Luckily this time, I only have a severely pulled groin muscle and a sore shoulder.

I guess my point is who else has overcome a similar issue and what’s the best way to fix this? This is not due to saddle fit as his saddle hasn’t changed and not pain because I regularly test for soreness and have had the chiro check him over. After the second time, he was worked on the ground which he was just ok with and then looked panicked as another person laid over the saddle. It starts out as “I don’t want to stand for mounting” to “Oh, shit, why aren’t you balanced on me. TIME TO FREAK OTU!” I am thinking that there are major holes in his training and they are finally coming out. He fooled me into thinking he knew more than he did because he is just so kind by nature. I realize this can be an OTTB problem but I am weighing my options here. First and foremost, I do NOT want to hurt myself again. My first though is to send him to a “cowboy” to basically be re-broke. Based on any past experiences, will this “fix” him? Also, how have your experiences been with “cowboys” and OTTBs. His bucking is flat out dangerous and I don’t think I’ll be as lucky next time.

I’m sort of lost on what to do and do not want to give up on this horse for fear of being hurt. Sorry if this is scattered, my thoughts on the situation are so jumbled. I really like this horse and see how much potential he has.

[merrygoround]

Was someone else holding him on all three occasions? I have met horses who seem to flash back to the paddock and races when held by a second person.

Rider had to mount alone.

Just a thought.

[x]

Yeah. That is dangerous, bucking as you get on. That is the one thing that makes me really nervous about a horse–one that will do that. Normally, I’ve had good luck teaching a horse to stand with treats–but one that is really afraid of mounting is another story. But he was fine for a while, right? So what do you think has changed?

[msewhite]

First time was no second person, second time there was and he completely ran over her. Absolutely nothing has changed. No change in tack, location, feed, way I mount, work I do before mounting, nothing. He stood perfectly still for 8 months prior.

[msewhite]

He is also doesn’t take treats.

[Buttonwillow]

Oh my gosh. You are brave.

[Countrywood]

That is totally scaring and heart breaking.

Perhaps think about sending him to a cowboy for training…most of them mount from ground in a western saddle so mounting block and in an English would have to be specified to them as a retrain goal.

Perhaps it all was too much too soon, and he needs to regain confidence but to be honest that is just a guess. best of luck and hope it gets resolved safely.

Not that it compares in severity, but my horse, who was broke very late in life at age 12, used to be horrible about the mounting block, stepping sideway at least minute, not standing, etc. After months of being patient, NH, treats, doing it slowly etc, I got mad and whacked him across the chest and backed him up 20 feet and he was fine after that. Occasionally I need a correction with dressage whip at block but it is mild now. However, now he is bucking a bit under saddle in protest to leg on. So I believe that these horses might have holes in their training or attitude/fears, and if it is solved in one area it might come out in another unless and until they are fully re trained (though an undiagnosed physical ailment such as kissing spines or a pinched nerve is always possible in a sudden change of behavior)

As a side note, has he ever been treated for ulcers? Could that be a possibility?

[msewhite]

It really really is heartbreaking. I am a firm believer of the OTTB and in my heart, I want this to work out.

As for too much too soon, that might be the case for the second time but I have been very diligent about taking things slow and taking baby steps. In my mind, I have been very cautious.

I have not checked for ulcers because he has given no indication of needing to be scoped. But anything is possible! I check his back for soreness on a very regular basis and he has been adjusted by a chiro multiple times (well really once and then follow ups that were clean).

My number 1 option right now sounds like a cowboy. Safety, for myself and my horse, is my primary concern.

Sigh. This is exhausting.

[Laurierace]

You don’t need to rebreak him but you do need to work on his mounting. Start by taking him to the mounting block and praising like crazy when he stands for a second. Find something he likes even if it is jus handful of his feed or hay to treat him with and call it a day. Repeat as necessary then have someone stuff him full of whatever he likes while someone stands on the mounting block and pats him on the butt and neck. Eventually get to the point you can lay your belly across the saddle. At any point if he shows any unhappiness, take as many steps back as necessary. Eventually work your way to standing with your foot in the stirrup then get back down.

[IrishHunter]

I think sending him to a cowboy type would probably do him good. A horse at my old barn did this exact same thing. For every ride previous he stood like an angel to be mounted from the block, no one holding him or anything. Then one day out of the blue he took off on the owner bucking and she fell off and was trampled. She didn’t want to get back on the second time as she believed he would do it again so I hopped on since I’m used to bucky horses and sure enough he did the same thing. I just pulled one rein, kept his head up the bnest I could and let him buck it out. He stopped for a second and started to walk off and I praised him and then he started again and I again did the same thing. By the end he was huffing and puffing and seemed quite offended he didn’t “win” and he hadn’t done it since that I’m aware of.

He just needed to see that he wasn’t going to have a tantrum and win and he settled right back down to business. Maybe your guy just needs someone to let him buck it out.

[Countrywood]

It’s more cost effective to treat for ulcers than testing so might be worth a try. That, and sending him to a cowboy.

Don’t feel bad that it is due to being an OTTB. I knew a young woman rider who exact same thing happened to her…on a 50k WB dressage horse she imported from Europe!

In her case at least, it was more of a bucking thing then a mounting thing, but it started with mounting. About a month after she got horse ( an excellent rider btw), she took horse to a clinic, it bucked at the mounting block and she came off. She called seller, horse had no prior history of bucking (a six year old gelding).

Next month, she was riding in arena with me, my horse spooked, then her horse spooked. My horse recovered normally, hers took into a violent rodeo bucking fit till she came off. She broke her shoulder. She lunged him a few months, then as she got better started riding again. I lost touch with them as she moved barns, showed a couple of times, then I heard she had dropped out of dressage and riding/ I don’t’ know what happened to the horse, why she stopped (young, around age 20) I hope she starts again as she was very talented. The only thing I can say about the horse is he seemed very pushed in his training. But if there was a physical/pain element involved, I have no idea.

From what I observed at least, this horse seemed to “lose it” directly after spooking. But what caused him to “lose it” the first time it happened at mounting block I have no idea. I wonder if a pinched nerve or other problem could have any part in these incidents? Just dont’ know , each case might be different.

[FineAlready]

I know you said you don’t think it is pain because you palpate for pain and have a chiro look at him, etc., but I REALLY think this sounds like pain. Kissing spines, for example, don’t always present with pain on palpation. Ulcers could definitely be a possibility.

Most horses don’t go from totally rock solid for a long period (8 months) to doing something really over the top like this unless there is some kind of pain. It could really be pain anywhere (hooves, hocks, who knows), and he associates mounting with imminent pain. You should REALLY have a vet out to look at him carefully before doing something like sending him to a cowboy.

My most serious riding accident was a mounting accident wherein a horse flipped on me into the side of a building. I broke my femur. I had known the horse a long time, and it was totally out of character for him. The reason I was getting on him that day, though, was that he had recently knocked someone’s teeth out doing something similar at the mounting block. He wasn’t my horse, and I don’t know what was wrong with him…but SOMETHING was physically wrong with that horse. I would bet money on it in retrospect. He was retired after my accident.

Also, it is true that some TBs that have raced have trouble with someone standing at their head for mounting. My horse will rear if someone is standing at his head, but he stands perfectly if he and I are alone at the mounting block.

But, really, I don’t think this is an “OTTB” problem. He was fine for 8 months after you got him, and presumably fine at the track. This sounds new, and it sounds like pain.

[BigBayHanoMare]

Kissing spine is the first thing that comes to mind after reading the OP.

[SpyglassEventing]

My TB had a mounting issue crop up after being pretty good (not solid, but decent) to be mounted. He overreacted to seeing my leg swing over his rump (my boot might have brushed him too, but if so then very gently), spun around while I only had one foot in the stirrup, and made a beeline into the barn. I came off on the concrete in front of the barn door I broke my hand pretty badly, so had plenty of recovery time to think about what had happened.

A few months later, I finally thought to test him for Lyme, and he had a VERY high titer. Mind you, he was hypersensitive about everything and anything touching/almost touching him due to the Lyme, so it wasn’t only a mounting issue, but it most definitely caused his extreme reaction that day.

So, #1 I had to treat him for Lyme. That took care of 90% of the issue. Then, it was all the usual leading him up to the block, patting him, praising him, leading away, day after day after day until I could get closer and closer to getting on without him tensing up. When they tense, that is your signal that you have reached the edge of their comfort level, and proceeding anyway is going to yield a bad result. Just keep chipping away until you can lead them up to the block, climb up, pat the saddle, stomp your feet on the block, gather the reins in one hand, and lean over the saddle without them being ANYTHING but relaxed.

Good luck!

[gumtree]

These sort of issues IMO are difficult to give reasonably sound advise without seeing, or riding the horse. I only work with TBs and IMO and experience a sudden change is behavior in not a OTTB “thing”. Especially with what is now a 6 year old horse.
It doesn’t take much for a horse to “tweak” something that will give the reaction you have described when getting on. Be it from a mounting block or especially after being “legged up”.

I would rule out a possible pain issue first with the standard “bute test”. Which is the following, first day, 1 gram in the morning, 1 gram in the afternoon, day 2, 1 gram, day 3, 1 gram, then ride on the 4th. If he is comfortable then comes the real challenge which is finding out where the problem is. Just because he doesn’t show anything to manual manipulation doesn’t mean there is not something going on in his back. It may not be in his back at all. The is were a GOOD sports Vet is needed. Not a general practitioner. A good Sports Vet will know where to start “blocking” to rule out various possibilities and or isolate the exact location.

Does he go “off” as soon as you get on him? Or when you start to walk off? Does he get a “hump” in his back when getting on?
My wife’s field hunter didn’t feel right when she got on him one day. Though he did not throw a bucking fit just a bit of buck. Totally out of character. Turned out he fractured his pelvis some how in his paddock. A fracture pelvis is not easy for the average Vet to diagnose. Rectal palp and Ultrasound.

I assume you have given his mouth, gums a good “look see”, and teeth. IMO and experience ulcers are not nearly as common as they seem to be in the COTH forums.
Kissing spine is extremely rare according to the Vets I work with. But you never know.

If he doesn’t pass the bute test and you want to see if it is a “mind issue” then give him 1 ½ ccs of Ace IM and wait around 45 minutes and then get on him. Pretty much the standard dose for most TBs and he will be perfectly safe to ride as far as the ACE is concerned.

Considering you have some trepidation getting back on him why not pay a “pro” to take the possible lumps and bumps. You’re in the Lexington area so it shouldn’t be too difficult to find and pay someone. $50± should do it.

I have worked with a fair amount of OTTBs, hate that acronym, and have never found it necessary to start all over with them. IME the vast majority have been very well schooled by the time they leave their racing days behind them. The just need time to learn their new “work ethic”. And I have never found it to take that long.

Please let us know what you find out. I am surprise that no Vet has suggest the bute test to start with. This is very SOP regardless of breed. Also a big fan of Acupuncture. Finding a good one can be difficult same as chiros
As always to each their own.

[85union]

I’m going to weigh in against the majority here. Do not send him to a cowboy. You say that this horse stood perfectly and rode very well for 8 months, then, wham he’s a bronco. Something happened. Well trained compliant horses do not just decide one day that they would really rather be a bucking bronco. They really don’t. There is something that hurts when you try to mount. Just because he doesn’t respond to your checking for soreness or because one chiro didn’t find it does not in any way mean that he doesn’t hurt. Maybe it’s not soreness like a sore muscle. Maybe it’s something to do with a nerve that certain things like mounting put pressure on and he gets a shooting pain. There is a major nerve that runs from the withers down the side where the girth would lie. Maybe its his withers. I don’t know but I would bet an awful lot that this is not a training issue but is a pain issue. Cowboy breaking would only be torturous for him and could put him over the edge mentally to the point where it would be a major undertaking to rehabilitate him.

[85union]

Lyme could be a possibility. My daughter’s friend has a horse who became quite difficult, bucking, resistant, irritable, etc. Tests revealed Lyme; treatment solved these issues that many would have sent him to a cowboy over.

[CrowneDragon]

Have a thorough vet exam done, and have a saddler examine your saddle. Trees break, screws and nails work through padding, etc, so just because it was fine yesterday doesn’t mean it’s fine today. Maybe it fell in the trailer on the way to the show.

[msewhite]

I guess I should have been more clear about “re-breaking”…I simply meant finding holes in his training. With a couple other minor things he has done, he very clearly skipped kindergarten and 1st grade.

Lyme disease is very interesting to bring up and I will have him tested.

I will also have the chiro out AGAIN. I just want this figured out, for my sake and his.

[Countrywood]

Can the Chiro do X rays or scans? Are they also a vet? Testing for lyme is worthwhile , I think you are on the right track eliminating pain before deciding it is a training issue. The idea of buting him and mounting makes sense, perhaps hire a pro to be the one up, as the bute will block pain so if he allows mounting and riding off quietly while buted, will indicate a pain issue somewhere.

Best of luck, you are a conscientious owner and hopefully this will get resolved.