Stud Dog Contract - and questions for breeders

[cowboymom]

I’m not bigtime at all… but I think I would pick the best bitch for the job and have just one litter to start with. See how those pups do and then make further decisions.

I also like to see a Penn Hip in addition to all the other testing.

The stud dogs for two of my females was young and starting out; so not a lot to gather from past litters but neither was there a lot of “static” about the results either and I liked that better. I knew them personally, the owners were mentors in the breeds and informative and we spent hours talking about the potential cross.

I can’t put my finger on it but I wouldn’t want the shot gun approach with a male dog. I have a male GP right now that I’ve been approached on and I’m being super picky-rather bummed so far that the ones approaching me aren’t as picky!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;7300314]
I have a male GP right now that I’ve been approached on and I’m being super picky-rather bummed so far that the ones approaching me aren’t as picky![/QUOTE]

That sure would make saying “no” easy, though! So far I’ve only been approached by people who own very nice bitches. When we had our first Brittany, we were approached by the owner of a Dalmation who thought they would make cute puppies. And by the owner of a Brittany bitch at least 3 inches over the standard. Those were easy “no’s”.

[RiverBendPol]

My first question to a “rookie” would be “What is so good about your dog that makes HIS puppies supersede those of professional breeders?”

I bred my fabulous Lab bitch twice, for a total of 13 really excellent pups but all the while, the ethical side of me was tormented…One side of my brain saying, “Lab people want good Labs and that’s what I have here.” The other side saying, “There are pros filling the Lab market with good dogs and the shelters are overflowing with homeless dogs so why am I putting more pups on the ground??”

The next thing you should do is get all of his certifications in place. Then you’ll know if you should even be thinking about breeding him.

Is your dog’s breed a popular one or special needs?

I’d be thinking long and hard on this one. Be sure your bitch owner has a LONG list of people who are pretty well committed to buying your pups. Once puppies hit the ground they need to be spoken for, deposits made, contracts signed. It is pretty interesting how ‘sure-thing’ buyers slip away when the talk comes to $$ and pick-up dates. I had wait-lists and never a worry as to perfect homes but it was interesting to watch the emails/phone calls dry up…

[S1969]

[QUOTE=RiverBendPol;7300853]
My first question to a “rookie” would be “What is so good about your dog that makes HIS puppies supersede those of professional breeders?”.[/QUOTE]

I’m not pimping him out. I have done nothing to make him desirable as a stud except show him myself. We’re being contacted by bitch owners that have great dogs and breeding experience. Not sure there are really any “professional” breeders in my breed…I mean, some definitely have a breeding program but they certainly aren’t supporting themselves on the income from breeding. All of the inquiries so far have been from people I would consider “reputable breeders” and/or individuals owning an exceptional bitch from a reputable breeding program.

The only thing that makes me different is that I own the dog, not the bitch. My dog’s pedigree certainly speaks for itself as being “professionally” produced.

I have a Brittany. I would not call them rare, but they are not a popular pet. So breeders typically do not breed them for “pets” - either for show, hunting, performance, and a temperament that makes them suitable as a pet…and/or a combination of all of the above.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=S1969;7299915]
Wow, thank you so much! So much information, I need to process it all. This is great, though; I think at the earliest none of these potential breedings would be done until this summer (assuming timing, etc.) so I have time to think through all the details. Marshfield - what does that mean about testing with extenders?[/QUOTE]

If there is any chance of doing a breeding via fresh chilled semen, it is important to know which of the commercial extenders works well with your boy’s sperm. Just like some stallions do better with a particular extender for shipping, the same is true for dogs. So, when starting out, you can have a collection done, try the results with a few different extenders and check for viability. By the same token, if breeding via fresh chilled is a possibility, you’ll want to figure out whether you’re doing the collection yourself, packaging, and shipping or taking your boy to a veterinarian for that. On the receiving end, I’ve have had both veterinarian and owner processed samples and had no difference in viability/motility when prepared by an experienced stud owner.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7300920]
If there is any chance of doing a breeding via fresh chilled semen, it is important to know which of the commercial extenders works well with your boy’s sperm. Just like some stallions do better with a particular extender for shipping, the same is true for dogs. So, when starting out, you can have a collection done, try the results with a few different extenders and check for viability. By the same token, if breeding via fresh chilled is a possibility, you’ll want to figure out whether you’re doing the collection yourself, packaging, and shipping or taking your boy to a veterinarian for that. On the receiving end, I’ve have had both veterinarian and owner processed samples and had no difference in viability/motility when prepared by an experienced stud owner.[/QUOTE]

Ah, got it. Thank you. My vet referred me to another practice that does breeding soundness exams and collects/chills/freezes, etc. so I will discuss that with them during the soundness exam. I am quite sure that I will NOT be collecting him myself. I’m quite ok with paying someone else for that.

As for breeding soundness exams - as experienced breeders, do you have thoughts on these? Assuming the other health clearances are already done and are satisfactory, is there anything this should include aside from a general exam, review of clearances, Brucellosis test and semen analysis? Do you have thoughts about timing of these – e.g. within a year of breeding, or 6 months?

[Marshfield]

If you’re not doing live cover, then a brucellosis test every 6 months would be my suggestion. If you’re doing live cover, then I would repeat the brucellosis test before every breeding (and of course expect the same of the bitch). With your guy being young, I would think annual semen analysis would suffice. If you’re doing side by side AI or fresh chilled, then the sperm will get looked at anyways.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7301120]
If you’re not doing live cover, then a brucellosis test every 6 months would be my suggestion. If you’re doing live cover, then I would repeat the brucellosis test before every breeding (and of course expect the same of the bitch). With your guy being young, I would think annual semen analysis would suffice. If you’re doing side by side AI or fresh chilled, then the sperm will get looked at anyways.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And since your male is young, now is an ideal time to freeze him, don’t wait too long!

I have had young males with great sperm numbers, but not good morphology, as far as crooked tails on the sperm, so not good swimmers, kind of went in circles. Supplements and antibiotics straightened them out in a few months.

[S1969]

Thanks so much for all the information - it is greatly appreciated. I do think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to freeze him…as the helicopter mom I worry about him. All those “what if” type questions in the middle of the night.

His dam and his two champion littermates live in one country; his sire in another country. There are 3 more offspring here in the US but not showing in conformation (although they do other things). I think we would regret not having him frozen in the event of a traumatic injury or worse…so I will pursue this as well.

Thanks for easing my mind and giving me lots of food for thought.

[cowboymom]

:lol: Picturing a Brittney encased in ice!

I do know someone that had a dog that had many many happy healthy litters after he died!

[S1969]

Bumping this up from last year – we’re just moving forward with this now. Geez, how did a year go by so fast? We got busy with field training and just put this off since there weren’t any immediate breeding plans…but now…

Breeding soundness exam is next week, and I will talk to one of the vets tomorrow to know what it entails and ask questions. I’m not sure that they only have one “set” procedure, rather that it depends on the client and what their goals are, etc. So…I am planning to ask for a semen analysis, and I also will ask questions about extenders, although the planned breeding would be live cover. I’d love for them to freeze semen at the same time but not sure they can do both in one visit. I also want to know exactly how soon/how far out to have a brucellosis test done before the breeding occurs.

One of the planned breedings fell through because the owners had to have an emergency spay on their bitch. I’m so sad for them. The breeding that I want a puppy from will probably not take place until late summer/early fall IF the timing works out (hoping she does not go into season early).

In the meantime, I’m saying no to a breeding that my own breeder wants…argh. This is the sucky part of it. I’m sure I’ll be getting a call soon about that. And she would still love him to be a top producer…whereas I only want him to produce my one (perfect) puppy. LOL. I don’t know how breeders do it.

Any last minute suggestions on things to ask about, or have done at the breeding soundness exam next week will be great. I’m not telling anyone we’re having it done, either…just in case!

[Marshfield]

Likely the breeding soundness exam will involve palpation of testicles (possibly ultrasound) and collection of a sample. They’ll look at motility and morphology of the sperm.

As for the brucellosis testing, we typically due it when the bitch first comes in/shows blood. I just ordered in house test kits, but it’s a max of 48 hour turn around time when sent to Idexx or to Michigan during the week. Michigan is about half the price of Idexx/Antech.

Now, some more practicalities–and I apologize if you’ve sorted all of this out already

1. Is the bitch coming to you or are you going to the bitch
2. Is the bitch owner doing progesterone testing?–While some might say this isn’t necessary with a live cover, given that you’ve got a novice stud dog, you want to be sure that the bitch being presented to him is truly ready to breed. PM me if you need a crash course in progesterone testing
3. If a natural tie doesn’t happen, do you know how to do an AI and have the supplies for it? Or a veterinarian/experienced breeder available to help you?

[S1969]

Thanks Marshfield, these “practicalities” are great questions because I have not thought about them yet but need to.

The good news is that no one will expect me to know anything. The bitch I am hoping to get a puppy from has been bred once, and her owner is an (infrequent, but high quality) breeder…so I will ask her these questions as we get closer to see what she thinks is the best scenario. I know it is often described as preferable to bring the bitch to the dog, especially a novice dog.

I have heard a few stories about dogs that would not breed and I think it is good to be prepared. Actually, as it happens, the clinic we’re going to is quite close to where that bitch lives…lucky that we are both within 30-40 minutes. But I’ve also heard terrible stories about breeders trying to force a mating and scaring the dog (and/or possibly hurting them)…and in more than one case - still not successful. (And in one case, the breeder using a different male at the last minute… :eek: not a great example).

My own breeder is local, and I know she will help in any way (and I am on very good terms with her, despite the fact that she wants to breed a bitch to my dog that I don’t like…hoping that won’t change).

I’m glad I posted this, though - this gives me lots to think about/prepare for just in case anything happens earlier than anticipated – our national club summer specialty is in Maine in June, so not expecting anything until after that…if all goes as planned.

Thanks!

[Houndhill]

I wouldn’t wait until the bitch comes in to do the brucellosis test, because if it turns out either she or the male has a false positive, you want there to be time for the follow-up test which it seems to me took about a week, without the added drama. I believe the usual recommendation is within six months (though I prefer a little more recent than that) for males, or some people do it between each bitch that is bred (though of course the bitch is tested too).

We just went through a breeding with frozen semen via surgical implant, and had the ultrasound yesterday, and four little puppies with beating hearts were seen! Of course there could be more, sometimes it is hard to tell numbers, especially on the really big girls.

We had planned to do fresh chilled ( male is in Chicago and bitch is in NC, travel this time of year is so iffy!), but the male hadn’t been used for a year (he is four years old) so we wanted a semen evaluation, good thing we did as his semen was awful! He had a prostate infection. He has sired three litters out of three tries previously, so if we hadn’t checked we would not have known. Fortunately the breeder had had him frozen previously, they had seven breeding units frozen from the one collection, and the breeder was kind enough to send us a unit.

So freeze that boy, the sooner the better! I encourage everyone to freeze their males while they are young, you will not regret it if you need to use him in the future, anything can happen! Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

For his semen evaluation, is he going to be picky about the teaser bitch? I had a very aristocratically minded IW named Stuart, who was quite appalled that his teaser bitch was. Black and Tan Coonhound. He refused to perform, so I took him back to the van to think about it. He did, and an hour later had decided she was actually quite charming. I think we got ten breedings from that collection.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7942736]
We just went through a breeding with frozen semen via surgical implant, and had the ultrasound yesterday, and four little puppies with beating hearts were seen! Of course there could be more, sometimes it is hard to tell numbers, especially on the really big girls.[/QUOTE]

Yay!! Congratulations!! That’s so exciting. I have a puppy here for a few weeks because my breeder had surgery…same dam as my boy. He was a surgical implant of frozen semen to a deceased stud…so fascinating. Mom was imported from Australia, and this pup is going back there, so I was a bit hesitant to have such a valuable and rare little guy staying with us for a while! I’ve decided I definitely don’t have the strength of character to be a breeder. (I’d probably keep them all, too).

@Houndhill;7942736

For his semen evaluation, is he going to be picky about the teaser bitch? I had a very aristocratically minded IW named Stuart, who was quite appalled that his teaser bitch was. Black and Tan Coonhound. He refused to perform, so I took him back to the van to think about it. He did, and an hour later had decided she was actually quite charming. I think we got ten breedings from that collection.

OMG! I have no idea!! He’s a very polite little guy, but a flirt. I’m not sure what he’ll do. I am wishing we froze him last year but hopefully all is well…(he’s almost 5 so should be ok). I will definitely update you all after next week’s appointment.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=S1969;7942732]

I’m glad I posted this, though - this gives me lots to think about/prepare for just in case anything happens earlier than anticipated – our national club summer specialty is in Maine in June, so not expecting anything until after that…if all goes as planned.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

One of the coordinators for your National Specialty brings her dogs in to see me. I saw the dinner menu and it looks good.

[scruffy_the_cat]

I haven’t chimed in because I’m an absolute novice and had many of the same questions as you when my dog started being asked to be a stud.

That being said, before I got too involved at the request of the first bitches breeder I did a semen analysis and found out that he was sterile. We retired him from the breed ring very quickly after that and he is now concentrating on his performance career. It was disappointing- there are very few stud dogs in our breed that show promise in multiple venues and he was one of them- genes worth passing on.

So I echo Marshfield’s advice- before you turn yourself into knots over these questions, find out if your dog’s semen is good.

[DoubleClick]

I didn’t have time to read the entire thread closely, so I really apologize if this has been mentioned already, but will you offer a repeat breeding if no pregnancy results, or will you offer a repeat breeding at no charge if the litter produces under a certain number of live, surviving pups? We’ve encountered some contracts that have offered this at no charge, and others that have offered a repeat at a drastically lowered stud fee. With our personal stud dog, we offer re-breedings at no charge - just had a bitch who was bred to our dog twice and couldn’t get her pregnant. Bitch owner tried with her adult daughter, at no additional charge, and she’s due in two weeks.

Good luck and I hope all goes well on all fronts! We have one of the more sought after sires in our breed right now, and he’s our first stud dog, so the last few years -he’s now five -have been a very steep learning curve. Going the extra mile to get a bitch pregnant and then watching the pups sired by your dog grow up and do well and make people happy is SO incredibly rewarding. But, turning people down is a necessary evil that can be so uncomfortable. We’ve seen some bridges burned, but it’s important to keep your eye on your objective, which is the betterment of your breed. Makes the hurt feelings easier to swallow. Stick to your gut when it comes to breedings, clearances, and your breed vision, and you guys will be fine!

And post puppy pictures once they’re here!

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=DoubleClick;7943356]
I didn’t have time to read the entire thread closely, so I really apologize if this has been mentioned already, but will you offer a repeat breeding if no pregnancy results, or will you offer a repeat breeding at no charge if the litter produces under a certain number of live, surviving pups? We’ve encountered some contracts that have offered this at no charge, and others that have offered a repeat at a drastically lowered stud fee. With our personal stud dog, we offer re-breedings at no charge - just had a bitch who was bred to our dog twice and couldn’t get her pregnant. Bitch owner tried with her adult daughter, at no additional charge, and she’s due in two weeks.

Good luck and I hope all goes well on all fronts! We have one of the more sought after sires in our breed right now, and he’s our first stud dog, so the last few years -he’s now five -have been a very steep learning curve. Going the extra mile to get a bitch pregnant and then watching the pups sired by your dog grow up and do well and make people happy is SO incredibly rewarding. But, turning people down is a necessary evil that can be so uncomfortable. We’ve seen some bridges burned, but it’s important to keep your eye on your objective, which is the betterment of your breed. Makes the hurt feelings easier to swallow. Stick to your gut when it comes to breedings, clearances, and your breed vision, and you guys will be fine!

And post puppy pictures once they’re here![/QUOTE]

Absolutely this!!

It sounds like you have a good idea of what to do, and what not to do, despite pressure. I think the stud dog owner is equally responsible for every life you create, and you should not do it unless you are excited about what you will create together, and feel you are equally responsible for every puppy.

That said, I hope you will end up with a puppy from your male that you desire!

[scruffy_the_cat]

Sorry! Didn’t notice the date! Are you coming down to Slade? They did my dog’s testing and are very good. Congratulations!