Stud Dog Contract - and questions for breeders

[S1969]

As I’ve known would happen, I am starting to get requests for my dog’s pedigree. At the advice of a breeder friend, I should put together a stud dog contract NOW, and not wait until someone asks to actually breed to my dog to think about writing one. Does anyone have a model they would be willing to share?

Now, questions for dog owners (and/or breeders that own dogs and bitches)…how many times would you breed your dog/allow him to be bred? And do you have any advice for deciding on whether you say yes or no?

I don’t need the money, and I wouldn’t really care if he was NEVER bred. I am seriously pursuing one breeding from which I would like a puppy. There is another bitch that I might also like a puppy from…but I probably wouldn’t keep both, and that’s a hypothetical breeding no earlier than spring 2015. The fact that I would consider a puppy from two specific bitches suggests to me that the breedings would meet my own criteria as “acceptable matches”…but wondering if anyone has any other advice?

I just returned from our nationals, where we didn’t do anything at all, but got a lot of nice remarks about him, a few people who asked to go over him, and heard from my own breeder that at least two people might “want to use him.” (Not really loving that phrase without any conversation with me…he’s not available to be USED, nor do I want to be!)

Anyway, I knew this day would come, and I do trust my breeder’s judgement as far as eligible matches or not…but I don’t think she’d mind him being “used” in numerous breedings with a variety of bitches whereas I’m not sure I am ok with his being bred very much at all.

Any advice for the newly desirable stud dog owner would be very welcome. Thanks!

[S1969]

No one? Bummer. I am trying to avoid asking on Facebook because everyone in dogs seems to know everyone else’s business already. I don’t think a lot of people use contracts…but I want to.

[callmegold]

I wish I had any ideas. Hopefully Houndhill will chime in or GraceLikeRain?

A little off the wall but what about asking on the breeding forum? Surely they have stallion contracts which would at least give you some ideas?

Have you asked your breeder if she has a contract she uses for her stud dogs?

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

I don’t have a stud dog, but I have two very well bred dogs from breeders I trust.

Here is the stud dog contract that my Sheltie’s breeder uses: http://belmarkshelties.com/studserviceagreement.htm

If I were to own a stud dog, I think I would only agree to females who I found to be of the same exceptional quality as my male.

Is your hesitation based in (a) the fact that you’re very picky about a quality dog, (b) hesitation to contribute to pet overpopulation, or © a desire to avoid your dog getting a little too “into the game” and not being as good a performance dog? Pinpointing the exact reason you are concerned with breeding him multiple times and I suspect you’ll have a lot greater insight into either the boundary conditions for when/to whom you’re willing to breed him, and/or what you want to include in your stud dog contract…

[S1969]

callmegold - I don’t think my breeder uses any contracts at all; which I think is dangerous for her. And she also only keeps females herself. She really isn’t a “breeder” with a current breeding program right now, as much as a very knowledgeable owner that has bred a number of outstanding litters over the last 30 years. Currently, however, she only owns her elderly bitch and nothing else; my dog’s dam was bred by her but lives in another country, and was imported back just for the breeding.

LPH - Thanks I will look at that contract. Those are great questions, and probably are worth exploring in depth. I fear more than anything that “my” puppies will end up in unsuitable homes, and I will constantly worry about where they ended up. I am not sure I can really articulate my other concern about him being bred too many times…I guess if I were the one doing the breeding maybe it wouldn’t bother me as much. I think it’s a combination of me being picky and also worrying about the motivation behind the breeding(s) – I don’t want him to be used by a breeder just to produce puppies for sale. I would breed him because I want a puppy from him; if other breeders are breeding to him because they think they can sell his pedigree…I’m not as into that.

And for some breeders, it’s sort of a game. Sort of hypothetical matches made real - just to see what they will get. I’m not into that either.

I guess I just need to be very selective, and if I have reservations just need to say no.

Thanks for the help. I think I’ve decided I will never want to become a breeder. Too much stress!

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

Hmm… it sounds like maybe your best move would be to play each breeding request by ear. Maybe put together a list of questions that will need to be answered satisfactorily before you’ll consider letting them try and tackle a litter of your guy’s pups. Stuff that’s beyond just health tests and performance titles… things such as:

• How many litters have you bred in your life? How many do you average each year?
• What's your procedure for selecting/approving homes for the puppies?
• What is in your puppy buyer contract about spay/neuter requirements for the puppies? How will you enforce it? Will you sell them on limited registration?
• What is your policy for taking back puppies if a buyer can no longer keep one? Are you willing to take the dog back for life? If so, what statement(s) about this policy do you have in your puppy buyer contracts?
• What kind of support do you offer to your puppy buyers?
• What are your goals for this litter- do you want conformation dogs, performance dogs, or are you just looking to breed pets?

As I said, I don’t own a stud dog, but it seems perfectly reasonable to ask any interested party those questions. And it also seems reasonable to turn them down if you are dissatisfied with their answers… there are plenty of stud dogs out there, they’ll find another if they find it that off putting.

[S1969]

Those are great questions, thank you. I will copy them into another file so I don’t forget them when/if the time comes. I will have to think about who I know that also owns studs and not bitches, because if I can think of anyone like that I know they would be a good resource.

I think the most difficult thing (so far) is that I know each of the people who have asked for his pedigree so far. As I said, it’s a small world. Maybe it would be easier to deal with strangers. I wonder what will be said about me (or my dog) if I say “no” to someone that I will see in the show ring next month. Of the 4 inquiries so far, I love two of the bitches and their owners; one I love the owner and am sort of meh on the bitch herself; the last I’m sort of meh on both the bitch and the owner. So it’s easy to know where to start cutting if my boy’s “dance card” starts to fill up.

Generally speaking my dog will be sought after as a conformation stud at this point. Our next big (fun) goal will be hunting, and when we acquire hunting titles I think he may be seen as a performance dog as well, but until then he’s just a pretty boy. Poor guy, he’d be so offended if he understood that - HE thinks he’s a performance dog.

[Anne]

Don’t neglect health clearances in addition to the questions already posted. I don’t know what breed your dog is, but bitch and dog should be tested for Brucella in addition to whatever health clearances your parent club recommends.

[ElisLove]

You must obviously make sure that your dog’s genetic health testing is done and that he passes those with flying colors. He should have at least his confo title, but preferably also has obedience or agility or performance/working titles.
Having a bitch owner who requires these things in a stud she chooses to use will mean that she most likely will be a more high quality breeder. High quality breeders tend to be more picky on how they place their puppies and will also take any puppy/dog back for any reason an owner cannot keep it.

[S1969]

Thanks guys, yes, I absolutely agree 100%. The only thing we haven’t tested for is CERF and that is because I didn’t realize it should be done annually, not just before a breeding, so I am setting that up and will probably have his heart tested as well while I am doing it (I believe they are side by side practices.) Will most definitely have brucella testing done on him and require it of the bitches. He is OFA hips good, elbows normal, he is a GCH and training for Hunt Tests now and will test for his JH in the spring (which he should easily qualify for, and then on to SH). All the bitches in question are all GCH as well and all are actually proven brood bitches holding additional titles as well in obedience, agility and hunting. I am positive all of that will be fine…that is not part of the concern at all.

It’s more of a sudden panic mode about him suddenly being asked about by several people at once! (Which I realize does not mean they will actually follow through with wanting him as a stud.) And, whether or not to allow (for example) him to be used 3 times in one season by bitches who are all within the same region…and if they were all interested, whether I should let them know that he is being used by someone else as well? My gut is telling me that I don’t want him used as a stud 3 times in one season…but I’m not sure why. I think partly because we won’t know what he produces and I’d like to see. But I am not a breeder; I know of a couple very nice bitches that I think would make nice matches to him - but I really don’t know how breeders choose from available studs (you hear all kinds of talk about “his laid back shoulder will help her rather straight shoulder” etc., but not sure that the results pan out to back that up.)

I’m also not really sure about keeping another person’s bitch at my house. I’m not sure I could live with my dog if the bitch was here for several days. Maybe there is someone that would keep her rather than have her here… I’ll have to think that part through.

Thanks for the thoughts! Any additional advice is welcome. I am obviously the helicopter mom to my poor boy.

[Sonesta]

I can only speak for me, but as a long-time exhibitor and breeder of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, I will only approve a breeding to a bitch from someone I consider a reputable breeder (or to a bitch from someone I am mentoring or is being mentored by a breeder I know and respect). And, even then, we sit down and look at the pedigrees of the stud and bitch very carefully and then look at the strengths and weaknesses of both to determine if we BOTH think the match would be a good one.

When I get random calls from people I do not know I ask them about their “program” and whether they are showing their dogs. If they say they are not, it ends there. I just tell them my studs are used only on bitches that have proven themselves in the show ring or that belong to show breeders I already know and respect.

If they say they are showing, I ask them their kennel name and who their mentor was. If I am either unfamiliar with or have an issue about either, I tell them that I prefer to deal only with breeders with programs with which I am familiar and end it there.

Those I allow to breed a bitch to one of my studs will be someone reputable and that has a puppy contract containing a neuter clause for pet puppies and a provision that they will always take back a dog they breed. And my stud contract has in it that they will always sell pet puppies with a limited registration and a take-back clause and that if they are unable to take back a particular dog, they are to contact me and I’ll take it back.

I feel a life-long responsibility to any dog I bring into this world.

[Sonesta]

I posted the above before I saw that the bitches at issue are all GCH. I feel safe in saying that they should be from reputable breeders.

I’m not sure I understand your hesitation on breeding him 3 times in one season. I would certainly let the inquirers know this if you do, but it would be a great way to see how he is going to produce on various bloodlines.

[S1969]

Yes, they are all reputable breeders and they are all from my area, so I know them all personally. I guess I am just afraid of 30 puppies all being born about the same time…I know they should all have homes lined up long before puppies are ready but it feels a bit overwhelming to me. And perhaps somewhat of an oversaturation of my dog’s pedigree in the show ring if a number of them ended up to be show quality. Maybe other breeders would consider this a great thing - but for me it is just extremely new. My dog’s pedigree is a little rare as both his parents live outside of the US. I’ve kind of gotten used to being separate from the local pedigree discussion and comparison at shows, and have sort of liked it. After nearly 4 years of no one asking that much about him, suddenly he’s hit adulthood and I’m not sure I’m ready. Haha.

I guess the best thing to do is to get all his health clearances done and recorded, and then wait and see whether he is actually requested as a stud or not. In the meantime I will review some stud contracts to make sure we are ready with our questions and requirements, and go from there.

[GraceLikeRain]

I have incredibly strong feelings about the use of stud dogs so take this for what it’s worth. In my breed we have several kennels that proudly advertise that they have stud dogs with 40-70 champions. I find that irresponsible to an incredible degree. Bottle necking the gene pool is a huge problem for many breeds and people who mass breed often have questionable ethics.

If I ever decided to stud my guy (doubtful), I would do so with a set goal such as becoming a top producer (5 Champions for male and 3 for females in my breed) and a litter limit to accomplish that goal. His mother became a top producer in two litters and his father in three. Both were used a handful of times afterwards and produced multiple additional champions. I believe it speaks to the quality that they produce and the strength of their phenotype. His mom is retired and placed but I would take either one in a heartbeat.

I see far too many broodbitches with terrible personalities, average structure, or underlying genetic problems so I would want to use broodbitches who I would be willing to own hypothetically. I also feel very strongly about only working with people who have reputable breeding practices and ensure quality care for their animals. Essentially, I think about where I would want to see my boy’s babies and would I trust the breeder with their safety and wellbeing.

I think it is always a good idea to breed a first litter and then wait at least 6 months to a year so you can assess what he produced.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7298133]
If I ever decided to stud my guy (doubtful), I would do so with a set goal such as becoming a top producer (5 Champions for male and 3 for females in my breed) and a litter limit to accomplish that goal. His mother became a top producer in two litters and his father in three. Both were used a handful of times afterwards and produced multiple additional champions. I believe it speaks to the quality that they produce and the strength of their phenotype. His mom is retired and placed but I would take either one in a heartbeat…[/QUOTE]

Thank you – I think this is exactly what is bothering me. Maybe this should be my goal – a top producer. I can’t really put my finger on it, but I don’t like the idea of “watering down” what I think is above average type…and making it average. Does that make sense? So the “oversaturation” of the local gene pool worries me…because I’m not sure they would all be as good as he is…maybe they would be (or better, but…???). And if he doesn’t produce well, ok…that is fine, and we may not use him again. So maybe this is at the root of my concern. As an owner/handler with very little show ring experience, I easily brought him to Ch. and then GCH. He was ranked 25th for 2013 in only 11 shows, and 5 breed wins…so in the hands of a top handler…I think it would be conceivable he could be in the top 10 of my breed (not that I would ever send him away)…one of his 4 breed wins was to beat a top dog (ranked #1 at the time, and #3 for the year, I believe). So he is not just an average guy (in my opinion).

Thank you for helping me to articulate my concerns. I have never really heard the term “top producer” but I think that is what I should be aiming for… that may help me narrow down my concerns.

ETA: forgot a few show in that total…added them in.

[BuddyRoo]

Not a breeder…so take this all with a grain of salt.

If I’m going to spend big bucks on a dog, whether for a pet or a competitor pet, I want to know that the certs are in place per the breed (OFA, CERFS, etc). Then I want to know the parents. I want to meet them and know THEIR temperment.

So on the sales side…that’s what I’m looking to buy.

If you need a contract, I’d ask within your group but also realize that you could be geting taken advantage of.

If there is a breeder you trust, talk to them.

[S1969]

I have no objection to people meeting my dog and would welcome most people to my house during the selection process, but don’t know that all the owners would expect to meet both sire and dam. It’s not uncommon (at least in my breed) for there to be a fairly great distance between them…or for breedings to occur with frozen semen of a deceased dog - I know of two of these this year, and one being planned. Typically (in my experience) the owners of the bitch insist on meeting every possible family and that usually gives them a chance to meet the mom and/or other offspring though. I do know of some breeders that give the sire’s owner a chance to review all the applications for puppies.

I have a friend sending me her stud contract. I’ll be curious to see what is in it because she is a very careful breeder; I think maybe more than many others.

[Marshfield]

Now might be a good time to get a semen analysis done and test him with different extenders.

[Houndhill]

Sorry to be late chiming in, I was on a judging assignment and just got back. With the rotten weather (freezing rain/ice) there were many absentees.

Personally, I only feel comfortable doing a breeding if I am really excited about the quality of the bitch, and feel I would want something from this breeding if I were in a position to take a puppy. I think you have to look at it like you are creating something together, and are able to feel really good about it.

The bitch needs to be of the quality that should be bred, and of course must have passed all relevant health clearances and be brucellosis negative, and have a solid temperament, but that is only the beginning. You must know her pedigree as well as you do yours, what is behind her, and not just her, but her siblings and the whole line.

The bitch’s owner is very important. Are they reputable, respected, member of your parent club, follow a code of ethics, do they have a record behind them of doing responsible breedings and placing puppies well? How do they screen their puppy owners? IMO the stud dog owner is equally responsible for those puppies. I do require approval of the puppies’ homes, this has not been an issue, but I have seen it happen that someone wants to acquire a bloodline, and uses a newer person’s naïveté to do so.

Do not be afraid to turn people down. You can do it in a very nice way, depending on the situation, some people simply say “My dogs are not at public stud” and then make exceptions, or one that you can use if it is a young/unproven dog, is that you want to use him yourself first, and see what he produces before using him on outside bitches. Or you can say, after studying the bitches’ pedigree, that you are afraid the pedigrees are not compatible.

You have to think about the mechanics of this. If you do not have the facilities to keep the bitch in a secure, separate environment, then say so. If it is a breeding that you want to do, either the owners will come to you and stay in a hotel with their bitch (after doing progesterones so they will know the timing), or you may choose to invite owners and bitch to stay with you, if you wish to do that. Then they can help with the breedings and do additional progesterones etc. Plus, you really get to know someone after they and their bitch have been your houseguests for a week or so. I have developed some very dear friends that way, and you can both share a great deal about your breeding philosophies, etc., plus get to know each others’ dogs so much better, you get to see them really run, see temperament qualities that may not be immediately apparent if you see each other only at shows, etc.

Definitely get the semen evaluated! And know what you will do if you are not able to get a natural breeding. I had one bitch recently who tried very hard to kill my stud dog, and was uncontrollable even when muzzled, so said the only way I would repeat that would be for us to meet at the repro vets and do an AI. Then when we did, my dogs’ sperm count was not good (it had been previously), so I allowed them to do a trans vaginal surgical insemination with frozen semen that fortunately was stored at this vets.

I think there was another thread recently about stud dog contracts, where I said it is very important to agree upon what you will do if there are no puppies, one puppy, or two puppies. Some charge half the stud fee, etc., doesn’t matter what you do as long as you agree. If there are no puppies, some charge some nominal fee just for the bother of it. If you want the option of a puppy, is it first pick, second pick, at what age is the pick made, when do you collect your puppy? Some do not want to commit to a puppy til they have seen the litter, how do you want to do that? Some only want a certain sex pick and/or the quality is not there, you can say you will have the option and will decide after you’ve seen them.

So…I have a friend who stood a stallion, who said that was a total piece of cake compared to the complexities of having an Irish Wolfhound male! The first really big winning male I had, back in the 1980s, I used to say needed a social secretary to handle all his correspondence. I was very careful and used him very sparingly, and am so glad in retrospect. The breedings you did not do are not the ones that keep you awake at nights!

[S1969]

Wow, thank you so much! So much information, I need to process it all. This is great, though; I think at the earliest none of these potential breedings would be done until this summer (assuming timing, etc.) so I have time to think through all the details. Marshfield - what does that mean about testing with extenders?

Ok, so it sounds like I should find a good repro vet. I will ask around; I’d love to find one close to home but I know of one in MA that is recommended and is a breeder of my own breed so that is useful.

I was told by another breeder not too long ago that they had a one puppy litter sired by their stud and they thought it was possibly due to treatment for Lyme or some other tickborne illness; not sure if they were suggesting it was permanent or just a side effect of recent treatment. Needless to say, she also recommended semen analysis before breeding, only because it is problematic after the fact to find out there is a problem. So…that sounds like a logical step, along with the CERF and start looking at contract language.

Thanks so much for your feedback!