I am inclined to go with a good looking thoroughbred with sport horse lines. Thoroughbreds are proven to cross with quarterhorses so that you end up with a homogenous looking horse …not different parts from different breeds. With that said I accidentally came across an appy/xx cross stallion on the appy mare thread who does have some good thoroughbred sportlines.(edited to add finally found a picture standing up of the appy stallion and he does look a little long backed)
[QUOTE=beowulf;8863159]
It’s a good thing I noted it was just my experience and not representative of every APHA horse out there. My experience is with APHA horses that look just like OP’s mare. Long in the body, short of limb, and very upright. No one in their right mind would argue that that type of phenotype is conducive to jumping capability.
You can defend the breed since you have an attachment to it, but by and large the breed is not bred for jumping or dressage and your horse competing successfully at 4 foot jumpers is not going to change that. Just like by and large TBs are not bred for sport. Hopefully that will change, but this mare was obviously not bred for sport.
APHA stallions especially tend to gravitate towards the stock type which is not the type needed to produce a jumper. Which is exactly why I suggested not breeding this mare or breeding it to something that consistently produces a better type suited for her ambitions.
THIS APHA mare (let me repeat, this specific mare) has too many conformational traits for even the best sporthorse stallion to overcome that I would not consider breeding her for a sport horse foal.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry Beowulf, but you really didn’t listen to the OPs description of what she wanted. I don’t remember her ever say she wants a “sporthorse foal”. The mare is very special to her, primarily because of her great work ethic and personality. Although she would like to see “some” dressage and jumping potential, all in all, is happy with a complete replica of the mare to do camping and hunting trips.
Work ethic and personality go a long way. No, the american quarter horse isn’t bred to jump, but they certainly are wonderful working animals, and most of them can jump in the low levels (up to 3 feet) just fine. Though you pointed out many faults with the mare’s conformation, if she has been a working horse for the farmily farm going on overnight camping/hunting trips, chances are she can probably canter around a hunter course just fine.
The thing that irritates me so much about many replies on this thread, is that so many of the purpose bred warmbloods are much more difficult to ride (yet many people are suggesting she buy one). In fact, the more athletic the horse, the more difficult they are to train well. Further, the work ethic of many warmbloods can be questionable, requiring a lot of trainer money. The OP is not asking to breed the winning hunter or grand prix jumper. She wants a rideable horse to begin her english riding career with (via a little jumping and dressage), but all in all, sounds like this horse is also going to be doing camping/hunting trips.
A good work ethic goes a long way. If your mare is a total joy to ride, you will keep the foal forever, and don’t have goals of doing upper level jumpers, then breed to a stallion that consistently produces good minded, amateur friendly, jumpers or dressage offspring from APHA or AQHA type mares.
Lady Eboshi, I agree with your cause (but your projecting it at the wrong target). While buying off the meat truck is a noble cause, and I applaud anyone who has done it, I have also seen WB breeders selling their retired broodies to the meatman to get a final buck out of them. Best of luck OP, and I hope you breed yourself a wonderful horse to play in various disciplines and have a lot of fun with!
(As a side note, I myself am a WB owner and rider and I love them, but this is not what the OP is looking for).
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[QUOTE=beowulf;8863159]
It’s a good thing I noted it was just my experience and not representative of every APHA horse out there. My experience is with APHA horses that look just like OP’s mare. Long in the body, short of limb, and very upright. No one in their right mind would argue that that type of phenotype is conducive to jumping capability.
You can defend the breed since you have an attachment to it, but by and large the breed is not bred for jumping or dressage and your horse competing successfully at 4 foot jumpers is not going to change that. Just like by and large TBs are not bred for sport. Hopefully that will change, but this mare was obviously not bred for sport.
APHA stallions especially tend to gravitate towards the stock type which is not the type needed to produce a jumper. Which is exactly why I suggested not breeding this mare or breeding it to something that consistently produces a better type suited for her ambitions.
THIS APHA mare (let me repeat, this specific mare) has too many conformational traits for even the best sporthorse stallion to overcome that I would not consider breeding her for a sport horse foal.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry Beowulf, but you really didn’t listen to the OPs description of what she wanted. I don’t remember her ever say she wants a “sporthorse foal”. The mare is very special to her, primarily because of her great work ethic and personality. Although she would like to see “some” dressage and jumping potential, all in all, is happy with a complete replica of the mare to do camping and hunting trips.
Work ethic and personality go a long way. No, the american quarter horse isn’t bred to jump, but they certainly are wonderful working animals, and most of them can jump in the low levels (up to 3 feet) just fine. Though you pointed out many faults with the mare’s conformation, if she has been a working horse for the farmily farm going on overnight camping/hunting trips, chances are she can probably canter around a hunter course just fine.
The thing that irritates me so much about many replies on this thread, is that so many of the purpose bred warmbloods are much more difficult to ride (yet many people are suggesting she buy one). In fact, the more athletic the horse, the more difficult they are to train well. Further, the work ethic of many warmbloods can be questionable, requiring a lot of trainer money. The OP is not asking to breed the winning hunter or grand prix jumper. She wants a rideable horse to begin her english riding career with (via a little jumping and dressage), but all in all, sounds like this horse is also going to be doing camping/hunting trips.
A good work ethic goes a long way. If your mare is a total joy to ride, you will keep the foal forever, and don’t have goals of doing upper level jumpers, then breed to a stallion that consistently produces good minded, amateur friendly, jumpers or dressage offspring from APHA or AQHA type mares.
While buying off the meat truck is a noble cause, and I applaud anyone who has done it, I have seen WB breeders selling their retired broodies to the meatman to get a final buck out of them. Best of luck OP, and I hope you breed yourself a wonderful horse to play in various disciplines and have a lot of fun with!
Unfortunately, this is a sport horse breeding forum. She didn’t have to say sport horse… it is implied.
If breeding her is a must: I would stick to a TB. Since you mention eventing… Sea Accounts comes to mind. This way you can register very easy. If a WB is only in your mind I would look at Tatendrang. He is taller and seems to stamp his get.
My main question… if she can take AI why on earth would you flush perfectly good $$$ on embryo transfer?
[QUOTE=Centuree;8874363]
I am sorry Beowulf, but you really didn’t listen to the OPs description of what she wanted. I don’t remember her ever say she wants a “sporthorse foal”. The mare is very special to her, primarily because of her great work ethic and personality. Although she would like to see “some” dressage and jumping potential, all in all, is happy with a complete replica of the mare to do camping and hunting trips.
Work ethic and personality go a long way. No, the american quarter horse isn’t bred to jump, but they certainly are wonderful working animals, and most of them can jump in the low levels (up to 3 feet) just fine. Though you pointed out many faults with the mare’s conformation, if she has been a working horse for the farmily farm going on overnight camping/hunting trips, chances are she can probably canter around a hunter course just fine.
The thing that irritates me so much about many replies on this thread, is that so many of the purpose bred warmbloods are much more difficult to ride (yet many people are suggesting she buy one). In fact, the more athletic the horse, the more difficult they are to train well. Further, the work ethic of many warmbloods can be questionable, requiring a lot of trainer money. The OP is not asking to breed the winning hunter or grand prix jumper. She wants a rideable horse to begin her english riding career with (via a little jumping and dressage), but all in all, sounds like this horse is also going to be doing camping/hunting trips.
A good work ethic goes a long way. If your mare is a total joy to ride, you will keep the foal forever, and don’t have goals of doing upper level jumpers, then breed to a stallion that consistently produces good minded, amateur friendly, jumpers or dressage offspring from APHA or AQHA type mares.
Lady Eboshi, I agree with your cause (but your projecting it at the wrong target). While buying off the meat truck is a noble cause, and I applaud anyone who has done it, I have also seen WB breeders selling their retired broodies to the meatman to get a final buck out of them. Best of luck OP, and I hope you breed yourself a wonderful horse to play in various disciplines and have a lot of fun with!
(As a side note, I myself am a WB owner and rider and I love them, but this is not what the OP is looking for).[/QUOTE]
BOLD MINE - You need a SOUND horse to do these things! Did you take a look at OP’s mare?
‘dressage and jumper’ talent = sporthorse. OP also mentioned eventing - which is a sport-horse discipline.
Sounds like she needs a SOUND horse.
Again, APHA/AQHA wouldn’t have much taller - she’d need to go TB or WB for this.
I think you have the wrong target - I am far from a WB snob despite your attempt to peg me as one. I didn’t mention any GP stallions nor did I mention OP’s mare needed an In Vogue Highly Marketable Stud. What I did mention is that the mare has too much conformationally for a good stallion to overcome from a sport/riding (which is what OP would be pursuing) perspective. The mare looks like a halter-bred horse and we know those do not hold up very well for riding purposes.
I am a soundness snob – my big beef with the OP’s mare is that she is not built in a way that predisposes her (or her progeny) to long-term soundness. That’s not the mare’s fault, and she can’t help it and she looks like a lovely mare to love and own – but that does not change her conformation. If you are suggesting OP breed this mare back to an APHA or AQHA type that has similar conformation you would be exacerbating the likelihood that the foal will not be sound to do the job.
Why can’t OP do the job she wants with the mare, one wonders?
We have bred Paint horses for 25 years. Many of our horses have gone on to jump - one being a “A” circuit hunter. People thought she was a warmblood.
A vet friend and I went looking for a dressage horse for her last year. Man, talk about a ton of lame horses. She couldn’t find a prospect that suited her, and many were visibly lame.
Not all of us want warmbloods 
If I bred my breeding stock Paint mare it will be to a TB jumper or an APHA or AQHA jumper as well.
Good luck RoyalRain42.
Nancy!
[QUOTE=Nancy!;8874662]
We have bred Paint horses for 25 years. Many of our horses have gone on to jump - one being a “A” circuit hunter. People thought she was a warmblood.
A vet friend and I went looking for a dressage horse for her last year. Man, talk about a ton of lame horses. She couldn’t find a prospect that suited her, and many were visibly lame.
Not all of us want warmbloods If I bred my breeding stock Paint mare it will be to a TB jumper or an APHA or AQHA jumper as well.
Good luck RoyalRain42.
Nancy![/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone is saying OP needs a warmblood for the job. Actually, it appears the consensus is TB would be best.
Do you breed APHA horses that look like OP’s?
Interesting that someone mentions that this mare isn’t breeding quality and it gets twisted around about being a snob because their Paint did XXXX. Beowulf really is stating conformational facts and I know I didn’t say anthing about her not being a warmblood. She isn’t my cup of tea though either.
I had an awesome Paint that I thought about breeding and had a hell of a jump. I didn’t though (too many changes I wanted to make) …
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/danishknab1/media/Kodi_zpsexutsnqq.jpg.html
[QUOTE=beowulf;8874510]
The mare looks like a halter-bred horse and we know those do not hold up very well for riding purposes[/QUOTE]
My APHA mare is halter bred. And at 17 years old is completely sound. Her only issues have been self inflicted injuries and a couple abscesses. That’s it. We’ve done games, team penning, team sorting, tons of trail riding, lessons with a lot of different riders, both english and western. She has never been unsound (except for those pesky abscesses…)
I think the take home lesson might be that not everyone needs a horse bred to do International levels.
In general, I’m not a huge fan of breeders specifically breeding for amateurs, but if an amateur is breeding for his/herself then I think some allowances can be made. Especially because it sounds like this amateur has a track record of actually giving a horse a lifetime home rather than just paying lip service.
The fact is - even at recognized shows, the lower-level classes are full of “off-breed” horses because they are so wildly client-friendly.
Last year I bought a POA and I’ve been having a blast with him (he’s 1/4 halter quarter horse, btw) and I was delighted to see 3-4 other POAs at a B series finals a few weekends back. POAs are wonderful about not killing their children (or their amateur adults) and so they totally have a place in that world. Some things are much harder for him but many things are much easier.
Forgive my equitation - I’m still learning to stay with the rocket:
https://www.facebook.com/adrienne.ruther/videos/10103596347971800/
That being said OP, if you are looking to do an embryo transfer you’re going to be like $15k deep in this foal day 1. Perhaps you can find something appropriate that is already shaping up to be what you want and bring some new bloodlines into your family herd to reflect the direction you are seeing your riding going?
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There will always be exceptions to these generalizations-I’ve also met WBs with bad conformation and lacking talent for what they were bred for. I am not a breed snob, I showed my foundation QH at A rated hunter shows, we’ve even won some classes. I’ve seen plenty of ill formed horses who were always sound, ones with excellent conformation always lame. Tons of exceptions out there, but when breeding you should always been looking to improve and the fact is there are lots of good minded horses out there that can do a little bit of everything.
I do agree if the OP feels she has to breed this horse a TB or appendix with lots of blood is probably the best choice.
No one on this thread suggested international stallions for this mare. In my opinion a WB for this mare is entirely inappropriate – and the implication that I’m a breed snob is fairly humorous because I have and grew up with an AQHA/APHA… and I love him more than any other horse – but I would never, ever breed him. He is built better than OP’s mare but only by a margin. He also has been as sound as a dollar other than a coffin bone issue as a 6 y/o - which I am certain was directly in relation to his conformation. He has never been asked to work hard since, and enjoys a dressage-only career.
The take-home lesson is that you should be breeding for soundness first and foremost, and this mare’s conformation goes directly against that.
If you don’t need a sound horse, why not just have a goat?
I think that’s fair to say but I also think that anyone who has been around horses know that conformation HELPS but it can’t guarantee soundness. Especially when you’re talking about doing things that basically any horse without some kind of degenerative condition should be able to do (jump 2’).
A horse can be conformed to be generally useful without being an ideal example. I don’t find the OPs mare to be all that horrifying. I’ve seen WB broodmares with MUCH worse conformation up to and including DSLD and toes turned east and west. The OP insists she is currently sound which is a huge leg up on a lot of horses getting bred.
That being said, I still think the OP should take the $15k and invest in new bloodlines to pursue her new interests rather than breeding at this point.
You know, I am a breed snob in some ways, mainly in that I prefer my QHs. But, that being said, most of my horses have had quite a bit of tb on them, and if I’m not on a QH, I want to be on a tb.
Looking at your mare, she isn’t the one I would really want to breed. But if you guys want to get fresh blood into your line, she has ha good mind, and has been sound, and you can support the baby, then fine. It is your choice. I am not one to talk people completely out of breeding, I have one of my mares in foal currently. But in general she has much better conformation, and has been mistaken for being a wb at numerous A/AA shows and when I boarded at a dressage barn.
A question I was taught to ask by my Dad, who was a very successful breeder in the 70s and 80s, was if you got an exact duplicate of your mare, would you be happy??? And if the answer is yes, then go ahead and breed. And look for a stud that will enhance her attributes, not try and change things, as that can get ugly. For that reason I wouldn’t recommend a wb or arab cross. Would stick with what works for her breed, which is tb, aqha, apha, and ApHC.
For your mare, one suggestion would be the tb stud Alota Gator Bait. I believe his foals are eligible for APHA registry, but am not certain. He himself was an o/f horse, and has had some very nice foals on the QH circuit, all o/f. And he has some nice traits conformation wise that could potentially help your mare out.
If you want to breed to another APHA horse, look at Living Large. He is a double registered aqha/apha who has had success in both arenas, including o/f. He is built much more like a tb, and if you look at his parents, the same can be said for them. He is showing this weekend at the AQHA congress in working hunter - is available to view online and you can’t miss him, the loud overo showing. And his sire is one of the most successful AQHA o/f sires out there currently.
I personally bred my 16.2hh AQHA mare to the sire Too Sleepy To Zip. He is kinda a freak as in he is pure foundation bred, but is very modern. He has foals in all arenas, are amazing minded, including foals going and winning world championships over fences. Probably not what your mare needs, but met numerous of the wants I had in enhancing my mare.
