Stud Suggestions For APHA Mare.

[RoyalRain42]

As of now her APHA papers have been sent in, waiting to hear back. (better late than never you know) Hopefully thread will get updated with her registry info!

The mare in question, is a home bred for the family and personally very special to me as she has proven to be the horse I will be starting my english riding journey with. I had her evaluated a bit for potential by a local Eventing trainer who has completely fallen in love with her work ethic, bravery, and determination. There was an offer to buy before help me and horse alike learn.

She was free jumped by the trainer with me watching, she free jumped 4 feet 4 inches, trainer said she had potential to go higher but did not want to push her as she is slightly out of shape. Horse will be going into full training with said trainer starting next month!

That all being said, i had been waiting nearly 5 years now to breed this mare. Saving for that long so that i could have extra funds for emergencies, and to do things the way i want. (as in breed to a quality stud not someones back pasture thing). I decided long ago i would be using an embryo transfer method, as i would really like to go through and document the process and learn as much as can. (i am one of those people who loves to learn everything they can)

With that said, when it comes to studs i am completely open to Cross Breeds. Foal will have a life home, so I have no issue with mixes as long as stud owners are willing to cross out. The big thing i would like to change about the mare, would be her size. She is just around 16hh, but she is very wide in the shoulders and hips. She is a built girl! I would like to pair her to a stud a bit more slender, and possibly taller. Hoof quality would be a plus, hers tend to be on the lower quality side. Color really does not matter, but anything unique is a nice add on. But I really do not care as long as the mind is willing, and personality good.

I would like to see some jumping and dressage potential from the foal, but heck in the end like its mother it will probably see a few gutted deer and long camping/hunting trips.

These are not the best pictures, taken about a month ago (before we moved) she is of course standing slightly up hill.
http://s1319.photobucket.com/user/ScrogginsSeely42/library/Flicka

Here are her parents.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/calis+spark

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dancins+my+game

Again open to most breeds! Just curious what people would suggest.

[beowulf]

She has a very sweet face, I can certainly see why you would love her. That being said if you want a prospect that can jump, with dressage potential, your mare’s conformation is not the basis in which you would want to start upon.

Her ‘type’ is APHA. You want ‘Jumping’ or ‘Dressage’ type. Three very distinctly different types. From an APHA standpoint, she possesses very desirable conformation. From a dressage or jumping standpoint, she does not.

She looks like a lovely mare for what she was bred to do (APHA), but does have a few conformational traits that are not conducive to the pursuits you are aiming towards. From a financial standpoint, it would make more sense to not breed her, and buy a foal that is bred for what you want to do.

If you are absolutely deadset on breeding, I would strongly encourage you to find a stallion that consistently improves the mare - I will expand below:

She has very straight hind legs, a trend seen with APHA horses. That is probably her biggest ‘flaw’ from an outside discipline perspective, as she lacks the femur length and slope needed for jumping. Her straight legs would not be so much of a flaw if her pasterns were not so upright, or if she were not almost camped out.

She has a nicely sloped croup and strong pelvis, but I fear the straight hock/straight pastern combo would really limit soundness. Her front limb conformation is also somewhat short for a jumping career, and she has a very straight shoulder that combined with the straight front pasterns, it is not surprising the ‘remodeling’ around her knees. The shoulder being straight limits the horse’s scope over fences, and upright pasterns typically place a lot of stress on the upper limb as they cannot absorb concussion as efficiently. Her short forearm exacerbates that and limits movement – if you compare her elbow to elbows of jumping sires you will also notice her humerus is too upright and too forward on the sternum (another APHA trait) for her to be able to have an open stride. She has a few blemishes on her limbs that might suggest strain caused by her conformation.

In all if you had to breed her, I would be very, very careful to pick a stallion that very consistently improves limb conformation. I would not pick an APHA bred horse. I think that is very hard to do and and your mare has too much from a non-APHA standpoint for the stallion to have to improve to make a sound and rideable jumping/dressage horse.

I don’t want you to think I am piling on your mare - she was purpose bred for something entirely different than what sport endeavor you are pursuing, and as a result, has a lot of conformational traits that you will be fighting against. I might go with a racing thoroughbred, if you can even find a stud fee in your budget (they tend to be $$$$$) - only because a TB has a very well-documented family and you can usually find pictures of sire, dam, and even look at pictures of progeny to get an idea of what type the stallion consistently passes on. I would not personally go with a QH, as the risk for straight shoulder, upright shoulder/elbow/pasterns/legs is too risky and there is a proven correlation between unsoundness and upright limbs.

What is going on with her right knee?

[RoyalRain42]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8862947]

What is going on with her right knee?[/QUOTE]

In what picture? In the straight forward one i think i caught her as she was shifting it slightly, in others i can agree the angle of the pictures make it look off.

For some reason the rest of your post was cut off in the quote…? Dont know how i managed that.

I do understand from a competitive stand point, she really wont amount to much. I really think the trainer had been seeing stars for some unknown reason when she worked with her. Maybe the personality blinded a little bit to what ability she could truly be. I personally dont see ever going 2 foot jumps with her in the long run. Even with the right bred foal, 3 feet will odds are be my max.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=RoyalRain42;8862959]
In what picture? In the straight forward one i think i caught her as she was shifting it slightly, in others i can agree the angle of the pictures make it look off.

For some reason the rest of your post was cut off in the quote…? Dont know how i managed that.

I do understand from a competitive stand point, she really wont amount to much. I really think the trainer had been seeing stars for some unknown reason when she worked with her. Maybe the personality blinded a little bit to what ability she could truly be. I personally dont see ever going 2 foot jumps with her in the long run. Even with the right bred foal, 3 feet will odds are be my max.[/QUOTE]

Most paint horses I have worked with have surprised me in their ability to jump, even if they have kind of bad conformations. There is no reason that horse can’t do 3 feet. Possibly more.
I would try to find a stud that was not any sort of stock at all. No QH, APHA, or TB. An arab would really refine her but you would not get the height you want, or maybe a lightweight WB of some sort. If you go WB I would try to get a colored foal, the foal will have better resale value being colored and half WB. You could even get the foal registered depending on the sire’s registry. Never breed anything that can’t be sold easily, you never know where life will be down the road.
Or, if it isn’t passing on your horses genes that excites you, but it is the process of raising a foal, you could use donor mare embryo and have your mare carry a completely different mares foal. I have seen this advertised but I have absolutely no experience with it.
Also, your horses LF knee is inflamed.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863007]

Also, your horses LF knee is inflamed.[/QUOTE]

They’re both big. More remodeling on RF, I think - either that or the limb is crooked. LH (white) hard to tell, with shadows at play.

I would not personally breed this mare no matter how nice her personality is, I’d be very worried about soundness and longevity on both her and foal’s part. I would absolutely not go WB, too different a type and IME, WBs tend not to stamp their F1 crosses as consistently as TBs, Arabs, other closed-book breeds.

My experience with APHA horses (or any horse) is that yeah, they can jump three feet no problem, pull them out of a paddock and ask them to go over a chute - very fun. Work them every day though, and small niggling discomforts arise. What ends up being the problem is they (APHA bred horses) do not have the conformation needed to uphold to the rigors of concussive exercise. They aren’t structurally built to jump which limits their career.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8863011]

My experience with APHA horses (or any horse) is that yeah, they can jump three feet no problem, pull them out of a paddock and ask them to go over a chute - very fun. Work them every day though, and small niggling discomforts arise. What ends up being the problem is they (APHA bred horses) do not have the conformation needed to uphold to the rigors of concussive exercise. They aren’t structurally built to jump which limits their career.[/QUOTE]

You might want to tell my 17 year old APHA doing the 4 foot jumpers that :lol:

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863036]
You might want to tell my 17 year old APHA doing the 4 foot jumpers that :lol:[/QUOTE]

I am sure your APHA is the wonderful exception to the norm… but there is a reason that those who breed for JUMPING or DRESSAGE do not breed for upright & straight shoulders, upright pasterns, straight hocks and short forearms. It’s because those factors limit the horse’s ability to move up and out - they make the horse move lower to the ground and downhill, and prohibit over-fence athleticism.

Here, this should illustrate nicely the difference between the two types:
APHA World Champion ‘The Big Sensation’:
http://www.thebigsensation.com/paint.stallion.the%20big.sensation.photos.htm
Downhill, low neck connection, upright straight shoulder, short forearm, upright pasterns. He looks like an exemplary stud for his discipline and looks to be multitalented in flat pursuits.

Top WB Stallion Diamant De Semilly:
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/diamantdesemilly.shtml
Uphill, open neck connection & sloping shoulder, long forearm

Completely different types.

[RoyalRain42]

Rest assured, her knees are not swollen nor legs crooked. I feel right now the angle/shadows within the images i have are making it hard to tell what ends where or connects where. Plus, i think she was stretching to get ready to pee near the end of the picture session.

As is, in response to Stormy Day (i would quote, but for some reason right now nothing is agreeing with what i want to quote) I have raised foals before, as of right now my main curiosity/wanting to learn is the genetics and process side of things, since mare in question would not be carrying the foal. Recip mare would.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8863058]
I am sure your APHA is the wonderful exception to the norm… but there is a reason that those who breed for JUMPING or DRESSAGE do not breed for upright & straight shoulders, upright pasterns, straight hocks and short forearms. It’s because those factors limit the horse’s ability to move up and out - they make the horse move lower to the ground and downhill, and prohibit over-fence athleticism.

Here, this should illustrate nicely the difference between the two types:
APHA World Champion ‘The Big Sensation’:
http://www.thebigsensation.com/paint.stallion.the%20big.sensation.photos.htm
Downhill, low neck connection, upright straight shoulder, short forearm, upright pasterns. He looks like an exemplary stud for his discipline and looks to be multitalented in flat pursuits.

Top WB Stallion Diamant De Semilly:
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/diamantdesemilly.shtml
Uphill, open neck connection & sloping shoulder, long forearm

Completely different types.[/QUOTE]

I understand how conformation plays into a horses suitably for a sport. However categorizing every paint as being a horrible jumper destined to become unsound is a disservice to the breed. Quite a number of APHAs are very good at jumping, and not just mine. Not too long ago I saw that a paint was nominated prelim horse of the year of their area. Should OP breed to another APHA and expect a 1.60 jumper? No. But that isn’t what OP is looking for anyways.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863141]
I understand how conformation plays into a horses suitably for a sport. However categorizing every paint as being a horrible jumper destined to become unsound is a disservice to the breed. Quite a number of APHAs are very good at jumping, and not just mine. Not too long ago I saw that a paint was nominated prelim horse of the year of their area. Should OP breed to another APHA and expect a 1.60 jumper? No. But that isn’t what OP is looking for anyways.[/QUOTE]
It’s a good thing I noted it was just my experience and not representative of every APHA horse out there. My experience is with APHA horses that look just like OP’s mare. Long in the body, short of limb, and very upright. No one in their right mind would argue that that type of phenotype is conducive to jumping capability.

You can defend the breed since you have an attachment to it, but by and large the breed is not bred for jumping or dressage and your horse competing successfully at 4 foot jumpers is not going to change that. Just like by and large TBs are not bred for sport. Hopefully that will change, but this mare was obviously not bred for sport.

APHA stallions especially tend to gravitate towards the stock type which is not the type needed to produce a jumper. Which is exactly why I suggested not breeding this mare or breeding it to something that consistently produces a better type suited for her ambitions.

THIS APHA mare (let me repeat, this specific mare) has too many conformational traits for even the best sporthorse stallion to overcome that I would not consider breeding her for a sport horse foal.

[paintjumper63]

Some paints are purpose bred to jump. They usually have a high percentage of thoroughbred breeding (at least half) and certain older paint bloodlines were more athletic than today’s paints. Robins Scribbler is a prime example of a stud that repeatedly sired offspring that could jump and stay sound and the offspring of his offspring have also proven themselves able to jump especially when crossed on TB studs (typically eventing). Another one is offspring of Sacred Indian (although I am not a fan), they consistently jump and are successful on the h/j circuit.
I did look at the bloodlines of OP’s mare and there wasn’t anything that screamed known jumping ability, however, if you at least cross with a TB, the resulting foal will be able to be registered and therefore if it doesn’t jump, it may have a second career.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8863159]
It’s a good thing I noted it was just my experience and not representative of every APHA horse out there. My experience is with APHA horses that look just like OP’s mare. Long in the body, short of limb, and very upright. No one in their right mind would argue that that type of phenotype is conducive to jumping capability.

You can defend the breed since you have an attachment to it, but by and large the breed is not bred for jumping or dressage and your horse competing successfully at 4 foot jumpers is not going to change that. Just like by and large TBs are not bred for sport. Hopefully that will change, but this mare was obviously not bred for sport.

APHA stallions especially tend to gravitate towards the stock type which is not the type needed to produce a jumper. Which is exactly why I suggested not breeding this mare or breeding it to something that consistently produces a better type suited for her ambitions.

THIS APHA mare (let me repeat, this specific mare) has too many conformational traits for even the best sporthorse stallion to overcome that I would not consider breeding her for a sport horse foal.[/QUOTE]

You didn’t really specify this mare in particular, so I assumed you were talking about the breed as a whole. That was my mistake, sorry. I do agree this horse doesn’t seem a good canidate for jumping. I bet she could do 3 feet because she is tall enough her height could get her over them, but the large front end will be hard for her to use herself correctly.
I think using a donor egg is probably the best course of action here. I am confused by what OP wants though? You want to take this mares egg and put it in a different mare? That seems like an overly expensive thing to do.

Paintjumper63: I think if she uses a TB the foal will share that big front end, at least this is what I have seen in my experience. It is amazing how strong those genes can be!

[Lady_Eboshi]

I know this thread is hypothetical right now, OP; and I sincerely hope it STAYS that way. This is going to sound harsh, but it needs to be said.

The fact that you love your mare, have fun with her and take good care of her IN NO WAY qualifies her as a breeding prospect, particularly for the English disciplines you wish to pursue. The sad truth is that horses like you are planning to produce are currently impossible to even GIVE away many places right now all across America. There are far too many of them.

As someone above said, your mare was bred for something very different (stock seat) and has conformation almost diametrically opposed to what will make the foal an English riding success. While your attempt to find a stallion that will complement her is ordinarily good thinking, in this case you are MORE than likely to end up with, frankly, something goofy-looking that is suitable for neither English NOR Western.

Unregistered spotted horses are going by the 18-wheeler load right now from every auction in the U.S., bound to Canada for meat. Most are selling for under $500.00, because there is ZERO demand for them. If anything happened to you, your situation or your family’s commitment to keeping this foal, it has a high likelihood of joining them.

Experimental outcrosses by first-time backyard breeders are a terrible, AWFUL idea–exponentially more likely to end in a foal defective in either conformation or temperament than an athletic, useful, and enviable animal. That’s just an unfortunate fact. Many wind up also with no correct training, insufficient training, or the kind of handling at that “cute” age that gives them severe handling issues as they grow up. And that gets them dumped at auction.

PLEASE don’t do this. No matter how much you love your mare, please BUY her replacement, do not breed her. Best of all, buy from a reputable rescue one who really needs a good home, so they can go and pull one more who has fallen through all the cracks listed above.

NO ONE should even contemplate breeding these days without first spending a month or two perusing the raft of “rescue,” flipper-barn and kill-buyer web sites to see what the reality out there really is.

If there is ONE thing the world does NOT need more of, it’s cross-bred, home-bred, overpopulated grade horses.

[StormyDay]

Lady Eboshi, well said, thats pretty much what we have been trying to say without hurting OP’s feelings.

Also, OP are you sure that leg isn’t swollen? even in the other pics it looks swollen…

[RoyalRain42]

I feel the need to point a few things out:

1: This is not my first breeding. Doubt it would be my last. I watched the mare in question be born, raised her myself as well. Along with 2 other born that same year for our family. The main reason i would like to do embryo transfer in this case, as it would be the first time for me to be around it, and part of it. We have AIed in the past, for me this would be also a learning experience and a test to if it would be an idea in the future to allow our nicer hunting mares to still be used during busy season. We normally only breed when we know said mare has 4 or 5 years left to be used the way we need, to ensure when the time comes to retire the replacement is ready. If we like the mare, or she has proven herself extremely well in what we do may breed sooner/younger. We only breed for what/when we need.

2: I guess i did not word the sentence correctly. Looking back on it. I said i would like to see some potential jumping dressage. Like to, this is not a requirement, so much as a small plus. I am not the kind of person who tosses an animal out if it does not suit a purpose. Not when we use our horses for so many things. In the event the foal did not have any potential, trust me when i say it would more than likely take its mother’s place as one of my primary hunting mounts, head of a pack string, mounted archery, the constplay events i do every now and then.

Lady Eboshi, in regards to your post.

We have 14 horses, all but one is home bred by my family. All come from a shared line that we found worked best for our needs. (same with the mare in question) You can say we have become spoiled to this line, as find it very hard to find anywhere anymore. Partial and biased to put it in all honesty. The work ethic and personality that comes from it gives horses that suit our needs to the best they possibly can.

While yes, rescuing horses off feed lots and from rescues is a noble cause, but we have tried in the past, and only had it end horribly. We have tried and bought 5 feed lot horses, all of them ended up unsound, and with too much baggage for us to use for what we needed. We could tell within the first 2 weeks of having them that they were not going to keep up with what we needed, and when most of them were unsound to the point these were when we bought them off lots… well taking them to the back pasture was more humane than trying to rehome them. As for rescues, well known ones, we have tried as well. We had a facility set up, we had everything that most required and then some, want to know why we were not approved from 2 different rescues? “Using a horse for hunting and as a pack animal is not something we condone” so basically the job we have horses for, would want horses for, is not something a lot of rescues are okay with. Thus, we gave up.

Sorry if i do come across as critical, it was never my intention, but the route you suggest has been tried by us, and did not work out. We just can not get what we need for one of our primary uses.

[RoyalRain42]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863285]
Lady Eboshi, well said, thats pretty much what we have been trying to say without hurting OP’s feelings.

Also, OP are you sure that leg isn’t swollen? even in the other pics it looks swollen…[/QUOTE]

Yes, not swollen in any way, the only one i think could look that is her LH (are you still talking fronts? Sorry if i did miss that) is because she has a small scar on the front of the pastern with hair over grown.

[Lady_Eboshi]

If you have 13 homebreds that have worked out well (and how many didn’t?), why then do you need to be asking random hoo-has on the Internet whom to breed to?

Just playing devil’s advocate here . . . but my opinion above stands. The world does not need more grade horses wearing cow suits.

[RoyalRain42]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8863311]
If you have 13 homebreds that have worked out well (and how many didn’t?), why then do you need to be asking random hoo-has on the Internet whom to breed to?

Just playing devil’s advocate here . . . but my opinion above stands. The world does not need more grade horses wearing cow suits.[/QUOTE]

13 home breds currently with us, none ever sold, none not turned out the way we wanted. All home bred horses our family has had, have been born and laid to rest with us. I can honestly say we only have sold one horse, even then, was not home bred but a gift horse that did not suit our needs. Found her a very nice home.

Reason for asking? The option to bring new blood into our herd, opinions about studs that carry a good mind/head on their neck that tends to carry on.

[omare]

Well I am not much for computer conformational critics. It seems proven that the quarter horse xx cross works well. I would look for a local athletic thoroughbred for her,. I also have read contradictory opinions on long backs and down hill being bad for jump.

[gypsymare]

I have an APHA mare that I have wanted to breed for years and decided not to… For all of the reasons listed above. She is lovely and was extremely versatile but the same conformation faults that come from stock breeding ended her career early with severe hock arthritis. Straight hind legs, long back. She fox hunted, and had no problems clearing 3’6" in trappy footing. I also felt like her sire and dam were so dissimilar that it was just plain lucky that she turned out so balanced but who knows what mix her foal would get.

Even so, it’s likely that you are going to do what you want regardless of what anyone here says. My top choices for my mare were Roc USA and Soprano. The first because it appeared that all of his progeny were stamped with the same beautiful front ends… Seemed to be very prepotent. And Soprano just because holy cow that is one beautifully conformed horse and he was close to home (now deceased).