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Stupid is as Stupid Does

It can definitely be a burn-out when a horse is of an age and experience that they should be mature in their training, but it’s like riding a just-backed greenie.

Possibly what you need is not a trainer, but another rider who does well with a horse behaving like this and can come give him a ride or a few rides, just to give you a break. A friend you can call and say “Hey come on out for a free ride!” Or else “Hey you get to be the parent today, Silly Sally needs you.” :grin:

Maybe even another horse that you can ride from time to time. Either a ride-swap with your friend, or else some rides on someone else’s horse, maybe an instructor’s horse.

Just to ease the burn-out effect. With or without a trainer stepping in.

To me, a situation like this is kind of like the difference between dealing with a toddler behaving like a toddler, and dealing with a teenager behaving like a toddler.

As difficult as the toddler can be, the teenager is 10x worse. Because our expectations are different. The frustration is greater with the teenager because we don’t think we should have to be doing this.

I can fully understand the readiness to just be done with this behavior, whatever it takes. But that can become a cycle in and of itself. A break is probably needed.

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I have one that I must ask “which horse am I riding today?”, every ride. Some days he starts out wound up and spooky. BUT I see that as a training task. We (horse and myself) must develop some consistency in moderating the horse’s mood, which goes to moderating mine as well.

I find that when I’m becoming aggravated at repeated mindless spooking and lookiness, I’m not so relaxed, either. It becomes like one of those endless dual-mirror counter-reflections. This mirror sees that mirror and that reflection comes back in this mirror which is seen by that mirror … etc. & so on forever.

So I have two tracks to work on at the same time, and the more consistently I deal with them, the better the ride.

Track one is me - No matter what horsey is doing, I am having the relaxed ride I came to have. Instead of tensing and perhaps anticipating, I stay chill (which takes effort to achieve :wink: ). I try to be that rider who is sitting up there acting like everything is so easy and fine, no matter what idiocy is taking place under the saddle. I’m far from perfect on this, but keeping it in mind is helpful.

I have started listening to music through one earbud with iphone in pocket. The music has really helped me mentally stay above the fray, as it were. In decades of riding I have never done this before, as I thought of it as distracting. Ironically, in this case a little distraction from all the twitches and ear-jerks are just what is needed.

Track two is horse - Through repetition, to teach that every time the horse has some sort of tenseness, the next thing that happens is that horse becomes calm. I’ll try this and that training technique to get him back to calm, but basically it doesn’t matter what I do as long as does become calmer. Turn away from the thing, toward the thing, walk, leg yields, stop under tree to cool off, trot, rein lengthen, head re-direct - whatever. Just develop the habit of the horse expecting to quiet his own mind after every spook. This expectation also helps lessen the spook.

There has been a positive effect, but it has taken time. There is much less spooking and it is much easier to recover when he does spook. It is still a work in progress - maybe it always will be.

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Oh I don’t disagree that you should keep yourself safe. Please don’t misunderstand me, it’s not critical in any way! And I get that you’re tired. Believe me, I’d love to solve my reactive guy’s issues without needing to go through the 11 steps to figure out how my horse is feeling today…I just don’t think I’m going to get there until he’s got one foot in the grave. :slight_smile:

Again, super best of luck - and if you find a solution please let us know!

Interesting thought. To be quite honest I would not trust him with another rider. I was riding with a pro (only moved on since she moved barns) who said she wouldn’t get on him, and my current trainer won’t get on him unless she has him a week+. She thinks it’ll blow his little mind.

I definitely understand the teenager analogy. I’ve had him a year and his overall relaxation and mindset has come miles. I am not a nervous or tense rider and am very good at taking my emotions out of problems (not always to my benefit, ask anyone who has been in a long term relationship with me :laughing:) I don’t think he’ll ever be a deadhead but he was silly again today with less warnings so something is definitely amiss… sigh.

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Nancy Lator Lavoie she is in southern NH during the summer Wellington in the Winter. Tristen Tucker works closely with her - she is fantastic!

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I would take a look at diet as well. My young mare was very emotional some days and could explode just walking out of the barn to her turnout. You could see it coming in her eyes and it was never an intentionally naughty look. She’s never been particular forward going under saddle but would shut down and stand up for no apparent reason. She was already on regumate so I didn’t think it was hormonal.

A well fitting saddle definitely helped, but she’s a totally different horse off of grain and on a trace mineral supplement and vitamins. She hasn’t had a out of the blue spook or stood up since I made that change. Knocking on wood like crazy as I’m about to go ride :sweat_smile:

Edited to add, I did watch a lot of Warwick Schiller videos and changed my thought process which I think is helping more with the normal young horse behaviors now that my mare seems to physically feel comfortable in her own skin

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Oh boy can I relate to this. Lately I am over my horses issues/quirks. My guy is super sensitive, spooky, and reactive mostly on the ground. I can see him getting to his breaking point a mile away now and can usually stop it before it gets out of hand. I thought about sending him to a trainer but deep down I think they would either fix him or completely fry him, plus he’s 16 this behavior is ingrained in him. I also would not want anybody else to get on him and start pushing his buttons then they end up getting hurt. On his back I feel safe 98% of the time (in 6yrs he"s never dumped me) but he did rear, lost his balance, and flipped over right after I had just purchased him. He’s never done it since but I know why he did and I avoid putting him in those situations. Thankfully I did not get hurt but I would hate for him to hurt someone else.

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Gosh! That does sound frustrating! Please don’t beat yourself up over making a few less than stellar decisions. We all do it.

If I’m hearing you correctly, what you have is a horse that has some extensive under saddle training (3rd 4th level dressage) but that also has some gaping holes in his basics (unreliable to mount, bolting on the lunge, questionable hoof handling). If I have that right, then I concur that a back to basics boot camp is in order. You need an excellent colt starter / an excellent person willing to treat your horse like a greenie OR you need to improve your colt starting tool kit (and I mean that in the nicest way possible).

I’m a big fan of Warwick Schiller. His current stuff works but it takes a whole lotta time and requires that the human set aside their ego and agenda. It’s not for everyone. And that’s ok! There is more than one way to skin a cat. My favorite clinician says that the best riders practice the basics and the rest comes easy. WS says basically the same thing.

The only person I know that I would recommend for your horsie is in GA which is obviously out of your area sadly. He’s good though and is used to big WBs headed for the dressage ring. Good colt starters seem to be getting thin on the ground :frowning:

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@blue_heron, I was wondering if you were riding MY horse. Your post could have been written by me, other than the level of riding. I’m reading this thread with interest since we are in the same general area of the country

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He is on a small amount of grain formulated for our area of the country with a Vitamin E and Magnesium supplement. He is also not a young horse where I’m fine with the off days and I’m comfortable doing Warwick Schiller type groundwork.

Yes, he has tricks that were installed by someone before me that are getting better with strength and relaxation. I wouldn’t throw him in the show ring as a fourth level horse because of his inconsistencies, but on the good days we are there. The hoof issue is from a genuine bad experience with someone that the previous owners did disclose to me, he just cannot get over it.

I’ve dealt with many babies and older problem horses, the only thing I’ve never done is backed a horse on my own. It’s not exactly that I don’t feel like I have the tools, but I think I need to take a step back because I’m too emotionally invested. Sometimes it’s like begging a toddler to wait until you’re back in the car to have a tantrum instead of in the frozen food aisle of a Walmart. My go-to colt starter guy moved to Arizona where colt starting makes you actual money and horses do actual work-- go figure.

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I’m just going to toss this out there…because your horse sounds a lot like what I was going through with mine (except mine was younger). He was a good baby horse…had some minor issues when getting started under saddle, but seemed to work through them. Then he progressively become more unpredictable. We had a few bolts when I was trying to mount (no reason). There were some periods where we made great progress. Then there were times where it felt like we couldn’t even w/t/c calmly. He started getting really difficult for the farrier (not mean, just hard to do).

I got to the point I was going to send him back to the cowboy for a tune up…but the cowboy had relocated to FL. Then I did a reality check and thought, there is zero reason I should need to be sending out this horse…given the time and training he has had, I should be able to work through this.

A few other little things popped up…long story short. He got diagnosed with EDM (axonal degeneration of the brainstem). The hallmark symptoms are explosive behavior/behavioral changes…some will be more neurologic but my guy did not really have neuro signs until the end (and even then he hid them very well). The biggest evidence was his difficulty standing for the farrier…otherwise, the average person would not have said he was neurologic.

Not saying it’s your horse’s issue…but it’s so rare and most people have never heard of it, that I now feel obligated to share info about the diagnosis when some of the symptoms fit. There were days I could ride and my guy was amazing…there were other days were he was so explosive, it’s a wonder I didn’t end up at an ER. And he was a sweetheart of a horse.

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Got about half way through this thread, will go back an finish in the morning. Interesting …very interesting topic and very interesting comments. Thanks everybody!

i wanna woo:

I have a lot of horses, each different from the others…unique like snowflakes. Sensitive, like the other kind of snowflakes. It matters to them what i think. I’m relevant. I feel that i must encompass a horse that i ride. SOrt of like…envelope them and contain them. I surround them and keep the outside stuff outside of us. And then it’s just the horse and me. We each have our job, and as the horse grows better as a mount, i have a lot less to do. Mostly, i give unconditional approval. S/he is never wrong. And not ever bad. If we have an issue with the mounting block, then we work on it together. It’s a project for us. i have patience, endless patience. And if today’s lesson (that i’m paying my coach a LOT for) is 1/4 taken up by the mounting block experience, so be it, because we are now on horse-time.

If say, my mare is shy about some poop on the ground, i find fun in that. It’s hilarious actually. If she sees a shadow that is threatening…then, well, i’m not doing my job. My job is to make her feel safe. I keep my mount safe. So that is something I need to work on. And i try harder to keep things surrounding her emotionally away. I can’t keep stuff PHYSICALLY away, but i can protect her nonetheless.

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Love this analogy! :rofl:

And how well does that work, when the toddler knows they have so much more power staging a tantrum in the middle of Walmart with half the local population looking and listening. :grin:

When a horse is having a public meltdown, I try to remind myself that no one is thinking “Wow look at that, that rider is terrible.”. No, they are thinking “Yeah I used to have one like that, thank god I sold him/her.” :laughing:

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Which magnesium supplement? The only one that made a difference in my reactive TB was MagRestore by Performance Equine Nutrition. Saw a HUGE turnaround in 3 days. Night and day. And the owners are wonderful for answering questions. Not very expensive at all and you feed so very little. Any other one I tried made absolutle no difference, including SmartPak Calm Ultra.

So this catches my attention, and here is why. This is my belief and maybe I am all wrong. But I do believe this.

I have heard people tell stories of “what happened years ago” that a horse still carries with him. Except I don’t think horse’s brains are built that way. Yes, something that triggers an old experience in a particular situation can definitely bring out the past, if it happens fairly soon after the original incident.

But horses do not, by nature, dwell on the past. Horses live very much in the present, reacting to the present. In my experience, they may remember feeling upset, but I’m not sure they even have a clear memory of most bad experiences. Horses don’t do what humans do and build fables around what happened first, next, and then. They tend to react so suddenly, I’m not sure their brain has time to build a lot of environmental details into the memory. Just a vague idea that something upsetting happened.

And, new experiences overwrite the old ones in the horse brain. In short, horses, by nature, are easy to re-school IF it is done correctly, every single time a situation occurs.

On the other hand, if they keep repeating the same behavior, that starts to imprint into a habit that has no reference to a past incident. It’s just a habit - even the pinned ears and sour expression is a habit.

The more time that passes, the less original memory the horse has to reference, until it is no longer available. Horses are focused on the present rather than the past.

It is humans that provide a decorative explanation for a natural, if inconvenient, horse behavior that may continue out of repetition, rather than for a specific reason.

But horses can imprint new behavior all too quickly. Research tells us they are remarkably trainable. It’s like chronic stall-walking or cribbing - it may have started for a reason, but it became a habit that is no longer connected with the original reason.

The problem is not the original reason, but the habit. The real problem is that human beings seem to be pre-programmed to dwell on old memories and old stories. As animals are not capable of doing. It is the human that is attached to that old story that rationalizes why this keeps happening. The human narrative becomes the roadblock to change.

We can’t fix what happened in the past. But we can definitely address a bad habit.

I’d recommend forgetting that old story. Don’t keep repeating it. Do your best to erase it from memory. The old story doesn’t matter to your horse now. I assure you that your horse is NOT thinking of it, he doesn’t have a mind for it. The details slipped from his recall within an hour after it happened. Rather, he repeated his last behavior, and that wasn’t corrected well, so it drilled in the behavior. He is now repeating what he always does. Simply because that is what he has been doing for so long.

If this were my horse, I’d address the repetitive nature of the behavior. Change locations, change how he is handled, etc. & so on. Practice farrier behavior at non-farrier times when there is plenty of time to work with it, and reward gradual improvement. It may be tough just due to the repetition having gone on for so long, but horses are supremely trainable. Some creativity could go a long way to making things easier, even if the behavior isn’t fully cured.

I had a horse that was terrible about farriers starting from before I got him at age 8 … except it turned out it that he wasn’t, really. Moved to another state, and the next farrier practiced actual horsemanship. At the age of 10 when my horse started with the new farrier, very quickly he was standing patiently with the lead around his neck for every farrier session. Both farrier and horse informed me that my services as a horse-holder were no longer needed. They were doing excellent, and enjoying each other’s company on their own. :slight_smile:

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My horse was like this, and the explosions were QUITE dangerous, and it turned out to be 100% diet. I pulled all grains, grain byproducts, and added sugars and he became a nearly perfect gentleman. Not a single explosion in 2-1/2 years and now successfully competing at GP.

For a very easy test, feed only pasture, grass hay, some alfalfa if you want, a Himalayan salt block and water for two weeks. See if it makes a difference. If it does I can help you with how to feed grain-free long term for plenty of muscle and stamina. But for two weeks cut out ALL supplements, ration balancers, grains, cookies, carrots, etc. You can feed grass pellets or alfalfa ones at meal time if he wants something in the feed bucket (read every label to be sure there is no molasses or dextrose or wheat middling or anything besides the alfalfa or grass in the pellets) and use alfalfa cubes as the only treats. It’s a really easy test, inexpensive, and you can start immediately.

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If you are going to do an elimination diet test I wouldn’t feed alfalfa. Some horses seem to react badly to it with nervous energy and explosive behavior. I used to have one!

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Ehhh… I’m with you, to a degree. But I do think that horses will remember an event. They will react to what happened there “last time”. Now, it’s our job to immediately begin erasing that association in their brain. Pain and fear can make a lasting impression.

For example:

The aisleway where I cross tie and handle my horses is connected to the hay barn. A couple days ago, in broad daylight, a deer ran through the hay barn and my mare saw it and FREAKED. Almost broke the cross ties. I mean seriously, what the heck was a deer doing running through the hay barn!

For the next 4-5 days, she started out REALLY on edge in those cross ties. Each day it got better, and got better faster. If I had avoided the problem or fed into the fear, then maybe she would have been validated. But she certainly remembered a “fear event” in the cross ties.

Maybe we’re saying the same thing, I don’t know. :slight_smile:

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You may be right, however, if someone perpetuated this habit it was before me. He’s moved barns, had two different farriers, etc. We’ve changed everything about how his feet are done. He can get up and dangerous for the farrier, so he gets sedated. I can’t risk anyone’s safety over a bad habit. He is never bad about me touching his feet. It’s specifically an issue with the farrier.

@Critter I’m certainly not ruling it out. I would like to see what his hocks are doing so I will probably have someone come out soon anyways. It is so hard to know what is just backlog from his old management because I’ve only had him a year and what is/could be something physical.

@Event_Horse He is on Mag5000.

@Badger I’m not ready to do something like that with him yet but will consider it.