Stupid is as Stupid Does

[blue_heron]

Well, I was an idiot last night and decided to get on my hot and emotional horse after a day off, a big weather change, in the indoor, and a bridle change. We had a meltdown at the mounting block and he bolted around for a bit, we did a lot of groundwork, and ended by standing quietly by the mounting block (I was too chicken to try to get on again as there was no one there to stand with him). I am feeling guilty because he gave me every warning he was going to be funny and I essentially created the perfect scenario for him to get in trouble because I didn’t listen. So I am not blameless at all, BUT also (flame suit on)-- this was a complete overreaction on his part and not the first time it’s happened, so I’m thinking of getting someone with zero emotional ties to the situation to work with him on some simple stuff, ie. baby boot camp.

Does anyone have recommendations for a colt starter/“natural horsemanship” person in southern NH/eastern MA/RI? My go-to guy moved a few years ago and I am looking for the next best person. KIND and understanding is a must for my overemotional buddy, but also no BS. I’m also open to other suggestions. I have a trainer I work with one/wk on the fun stuff (3rd/4th level) and he’s come a long way with me since I’ve had him but also I want to be able to get on my horse anywhere in the ring without an emotional meltdown.

[beowulf]

I’m sorry. Sometimes some days are tough. Do you want a trainer who works with you through these things, or a trainer to install a bit of obedience…? And… since it sounds like this guy isn’t green at all (3rd/4th level) have you considered it might be something physical that is setting him off and making him “overemotional”?

[Wicky]

Try asking Liz Austin (info@lizaustindressage.com). I know she uses someone, but that person may be up in Vermont. Good luck!

[Alterration]

@blue_heron

I am feeling guilty because he gave me every warning he was going to be funny and I essentially created the perfect scenario for him to get in trouble because I didn’t listen.

What warnings did he give you?

First of all I have a lot of sympathy. I have a hot and reactive horse and with the weather change, barn change, and a month off I longed mine yesterday and underestimated the amount of anxiety he was carrying even before I took him down to the ring. He seemed “up” but I didn’t realize just how anxious he really was. He was (in Warwick Schiller’s terms) already carrying 12 rabbits, and it didn’t take him much to get to rabbit #13 which caused him to bolt on the longe out of the blue (thankfully, I was not on his back).

If you’re not familiar with the rabbit concept, here’s a link (https://www.warwickschiller.com/much-worry-can-horse-handle/).

I’m not sure that we can ever ignore rabbits, not in aware horses, and we all know horses come packaged with different levels of reactivity. I don’t know that a colt-starter will get rid of rabbits unless you’ve truly left some huge holes in his education but it doesn’t sound like it necessarily. Sometimes I think it’s better for us to learn how to better assess how many rabbits our horse is carrying in that moment, and adjust appropriately. Yes, pain can add some rabbits. Weather changes can add some rabbits. Change adds a lot of rabbits, which makes sense from an equine perspective - change means a potential for danger to them.

Anyway - I’m glad you are ok, and I wish you well! I hope you find the person you’re looking for, and I hope you can get him figured out

[blue_heron]

Either. Ideally someone who will take him for a couple of days and then do a couple of days with me.

He is not green under saddle but consistency is an issue as well as occasional emotional meltdowns and a huge spook. He holds onto them, too. His former owners are not dressage people and leave a lot to be desired in terms of holes in training and how he was managed. He has to be sedated to do his feet because of a bad experience years ago that he can’t let go of, but this has been getting much better recently. I think he has some minor arthritis in his left hind somewhere (shows up in right lead canter and collected work to the left) and has been treated for ulcers because he tends to internalize things. We’re on the weaning stage of ulcer treatment right now. I’m considering getting someone else to help with mounting and desensitization issues that doesn’t have emotional ties to him because that’s where our issues crop up the most-- he didn’t even stand at the mounting block before I got him (though I thought that would be an easy fix when I got him, it wasn’t and I’ve found ways to work around his issue). I’m not ignoring that other issues are/could be at play but the extent to which he plays up or bolts is quite honestly unacceptable. If this was someone else’s horse and I knew about the situation I would be raising eyebrows.

[blue_heron]

He has little things. Picking his feet up and putting them down again on the cross ties, staring at me backward while I’m grooming him, being a little more enthusiastic with cookies than usual. The side eye is a big one. It sounds stupid but I’ve got him figured out pretty well. We have our routine but if we deviate from it all it’s a cause for a meltdown. And I don’t want to be that person that’s like “he looked at me wrong, cancel my lesson,” but I’m that person now.

My thought was that a colt-starter could help him work through some of those scenarios and deal with the rabbits himself rather than me just accommodating him all the time and then it being an issue when, inevitably, we need to deal with something and it becomes a huge Thing.

[Alterration]

@blue_heron

He has little things. Picking his feet up and putting them down again on the cross ties, staring at me backward while I’m grooming him, being a little more enthusiastic with cookies than usual. The side eye is a big one. It sounds stupid but I’ve got him figured out pretty well. We have our routine but if we deviate from it all it’s a cause for a meltdown. And I don’t want to be that person that’s like “he looked at me wrong, cancel my lesson,” but I’m that person now.

My thought was that a colt-starter could help him work through some of those scenarios and deal with the rabbits himself rather than me just accommodating him all the time and then it being an issue when, inevitably, we need to deal with something and it becomes a huge Thing.

It doesn’t sound weird to me I can directly tell the level of anxiety my aware horse is carrying by how much he tap-dances on the cross ties (he’s never totally still, but there are degrees) as well as his degree of pestering me. The other day when it was over 100 degrees, he would simply touch me with his nose and largely stood still, when he’s anxious, he’s an in your face, pulling at your clothes, picking up things and flinging them irritating ball of energy.

Mine too had to be sedated for the farrier after ONE semi-bad experience with a farrier - certainly nothing most horses couldn’t deal with and get over - he’s very slow to forgive. We’re a year later and he’s just let go of that particular issue. Thankfully the new farrier knows to get in there, do him quickly and get out. That’s an actual accommodation and will get better with time.

Getting rid of rabbits isn’t about accommodating but rather learning to release them. Meaning, teaching him cues that will help him ‘let go’ of the fact that he’s anxious about thing x, y, or z - similar to teaching an anxious person to meditate. But the key is for you to also have those skills in using those cues. You seem already aware enough that you know the blowup is coming. Sometimes horses, just like people with anxiety, need someone saying “hey blue_heron, time to meditate”. That’s my only point. A colt-starter might be able to help you teach the cue (although you do sound equipped), but it may take him many years to remember to meditate. I think I’ve taken that analogy as far as I can take it

Either way, I hope it works out

[blue_heron]

Thanks for the sympathy/vote of confidence. And my guy sounds similar, if we aren’t having a nap in the cross ties pre-ride things are about to get messy. Yes, I can tell when he is bottling things up and usually we can take a moment (we did a lot of standing and waiting after our meltdown yesterday) but there comes a point where I have to say “I’m sorry but your reaction was inappropriate” for safety’s sake.

[Scribbler]

This is a horse that cold benefit from a “so who are we today?” longe every time before you ride him. Where you watch his energy level and his physical state and his emotional and attitude signals. It sounds like he could also use a free longe type turnout to just get the wiggles out if he has a day off.

My experience is that you first have to manage the horse’s energy, whether they are too energetic or too dopey on any given day. Then you need to have their attention and co-operation which is different from their energy level. Only then can you start communicating with them and schooling them.

I don’t have any help to offer with trainers in your area. It does sound like he spooked you and you could benefit from another set of eyes.

In the meantime I’d suggest: giving him some big free longe run and buck time to get it out of his system. Then longe everyday before you ride to see where his mind and body are at. You want w t c halt transitions with voice aids. Also watch his known trouble spots like his hocks very carefully. Hock arthritis has a characteristic movement of swinging the whole leg without articulating the hock enough. But while hind end problems are easy to see in general they are hard to diagnose visually since SI can present the same way. If he is off behind get some diagnostics and consider your management plan going forward. If he warms up out of an initial stiffness I would ride but if you can’t get him using his hind end correctly after 15 minutes of varied gaits on the longe I would not school seriously that day.

I have found a little clicker training and a treat after mounting to be very very useful in getting a horse to stand at the mounting block.

If you think he has ulcers make sure to feed him hay, preferably alfalfa, before you ride. I expect pellets or cube mash would work too, but cube mash takes too long to soak. I always feed a flake of hay before I ride.

[TheDBYC]

I think the cowboy isn’t a bad idea… Have you considered having someone like an equine body worker with an energetic background come work with him a time or two? The foot handling thing makes me suspect he’s got some things in his background that could benefit from unraveling.

[blue_heron]

@Scribbler

I have found a little clicker training and a treat after mounting to be very very useful in getting a horse to stand at the mounting block.

I already utilize this. It works when it works but not on his off days, or the days when I go to mount up and he bolts off from the mounting block. He usually gets a quick longe before I get on after a day off but like I said, I did not make a lot of good decisions yesterday. He’s not the type to play up during a free longe, his only thing to to make a HUGE deal out of something he is worried about. He’s thrown a crow hop once in the year I’ve had him.

He doesn’t really scare me and like I said, my trainer comes once a week. I’m just feeling a little sick of this.

[blue_heron]

I don’t know of anyone in the area that isn’t a complete wacko, not to mince words. He has seen a chiro I trust and he was nervous the whole time. She said he was stuck in his TMJ and should see a dentist. The dentist saw him and did a minor float but no major adjustments.

[Scribbler]

I’m actually setting up a consult with an Equine Behaviourist to think about the green mare I’m working with who is still having panic under saddle. If it’s useful I’ll report back maybe a new thread if it’s really useful.

I’ve dealt with horses that were keyed up all the time like OTTB. And horses that need to get the wiggles out.

This is my first time with a horse that tries to behave but gets all inward and worried, and then reacts if the pressure doesn’t go away. One of her worried modes is nippy, the more advanced is shut down. When she’s feeling ok she’s very confident, connected, brave, calm.

I think if the root of the problem is anxiety then somehow I have to find the thing that comforts her. I worked on the ground with a very soft and slightly nervous green OTBB mare a few years ago and you could get her to relax by just rubbing her withers. This one however goes more out of reach when she worries. Then explodes.

She adapts to new things with quiet handling but is not the kind of horse you want to sack out or systemically desensitize because she will just get quieter and quieter until she explodes.

Anyhow not really related to your horse. But if free floating anxiety is the issue, maybe we need to think about how horse is feeling all the time and how it’s building.

I would take the hock and ulcer pain seriously. They can get quite squirrely anticipating pain.

[blue_heron]

Please let me know what your behaviourist comes back with. He is super when he is confident (expressive, forward, brave) but unpredictable and not fun at all when he is not. Agree he is not the type you can throw things at to get him used to it, as he’s fine, and he’s still fine, and he’s still fine, and then out of “nowhere” he explodes completely. He’s come a long way with reporting that he is nervous before it all comes out at once.

[Posting_Trot]

You might try clicker-training at the mounting block. It provides a way of cutting through the static and making the communication super clear. It also is a good way to give the horse confidence in you.

Maybe that’s a little “woo-woo,” but it sounds like he’s already quite well-trained. This problem may really be about him not paying attention to what you need him do in those moments when you’re not already doing complicated movements that require him to focus.

He needs to focus on you when you’re near him. He needs to understand that it’s his responsibility not to barge into you or take off or whatever, and that you’ll take care of him. Clicker training really helps with that.

Personally, I think you’d be best off not sending him away to someone, but rather having someone come in to work with you and him together.

Good luck; I’m sure you’ll figure it out!

Edited to add: I just saw that you said you’ve already been using some clicker training for the mounting block and it doesn’t work consistently. Frustrating!

[Scribbler]

In my experience horses need to have a baseline of comfort to respond to clicker. If they are genuinely anxious or in pain they will not have the mental bandwidth to play. My older mare is a clicker trick genius, super food motivated and fortunately generally brave, but if she is actually worried she stops responding.

[blue_heron]

He does clicker train. I taught him to load in the trailer and stand at the mounting block that way. We can touch scary things with our nose, target train, and do some tricks. He enjoys it and enjoys the food that comes with it but to him it is doing tricks. And then he starts offering tricks and gets upset and frustrated when he is redirected.

[luvmyhackney]

Interesting thread. My pony used to be kinda like this when I loaned him to a friend for her lesson program. According to her, he would be fine, a little anxious and just blow up and bolt or just flip out on cross ties.

I didn’t have that problem with him, but others did, so I started watching their interactions and basically they weren’t reading his little signs and he never spoke louder, or they were yelling at him with their body language and then he would full out flip out when he couldn’t take it anymore.

Warwick Schiller has a really good program and does a much better job explaining things than I ever could, but it’s basically what I did with my pony when I first got him. It’s based on listening to the little things before they become a big deal.

[Aussie_2020]

Warrick Schiller all the way. I love his videos, the way he approaches problems now is amazing.

[Feathered_Feet]

I saw that too late, hence why I deleted my post since I didn’t think it would be helpful

Then again, if he thinks it’s just trick training, perhaps it’s worth combining it with some real work, since it should be about shaping the behavior you want, even when it’s not fun. It’s true that clicker training relies on motivation for the reward, and I do believe some situations require actual punishment when the reward itself is not sufficiently motivating. Sometimes combining the two when appropriate can be very helpful.