Stupid Question: PNW Outdoor 365 Arena vs. Covered?

[Guyot]

I have both indoor and outdoor. My outdoor is 220 feet long and 80 feet wide. My indoor in 76x144. My indoor has clear sky panels around the top and it’s very bright and airy during the day, rarely need lights even on rainy days.

Used to event thru prelim and jumped up to 4’ in my indoor no issues and schooled 5stride lines. Now doing just dressage, and can school all the GP with creative lines, but it is nice to have the full dressage court outside to get used to the scale before competitions.

If I ever have to do this again… would just do the indoor and have doors(windows) that could open down the long sides.

Having the ability to ride despite weather, being able to park hay wagons, walk or treat sick lame or other medical treatment inside is invaluable.

Having two rings is a time and financial strain. I started with the outdoor and added indoor. Indoor is a necessity in northern NJ.

In a perfect world would have just the one ring and would love a 76 x 200 Indoor.

[Heinz_57]

@Gloria

By the way, the cost of covered arena is most likely three times as the cost of outdoor, so plan accordingly.

Yeah, this was my first thought. If you’ve got quotes already, or a sound plan to DIY and the cost is relatively similar, kudos to you… a friend of mine just had a cover/roof put over her existing outdoor and it was not even in the same ballpark cost-wise as installing an all-weather uncovered arena.

I live in the PNW and have ridden year-round in various outdoor arenas. I don’t mind it at all. So I would say go with the biggest outdoor you can build, make it drain REALLY well, and put in some good lighting. And perhaps buy a poncho.

[StormyDay]

If you are on the west side of the cascades, that indoor will be almost a necessity and I would build that.
Is it possible to build the indoor, but leave a grass area to ride on when the weather is nice? Then you could have the best of both.
As others have mentioned, a all weather arena is going to be expensive because the grade, base, and footing has to be perfect. I suggest rubber crumb because it doesn’t hold onto water.
Another thing to remember is some counties have restrictions on how much of your land can be used. You may not be able to build a large arena because it will push you over the % of land allowed to be used.

[TheJenners]

Even on the “wet” side of the state, you will not be rained out of riding for most of the year… what most of the country experiences and what our rain really is, is not comparable. Almost anyone can handle 20 or 30 min in the misty blahs. The idea of riding in an indoor during our more frequent winds is another thing, as in I don’t want to die. I’m in a windier area and it can scream and rattle around my house and barn, so the thought of trying to ride in it while it whistles through the rafters is a no from me :lol:.

Also, if you got quotes that are even similar, please share your builder. Either you are getting a cheap covered arena or someone is pricing gouging you for an outdoor. I expect to pay $10-50k (wishful thinking on the low end) for a moderately sized outdoor in a few years because at the bottom of my road 1.5 miles down is a commercial sand and gravel pit, so running up and down a million times with a 6 ton dump trailer will be a cost saver since they charge $100+ per load for a delivery fee on a truck load, plus I have a tractor and a dad and we can do a bit of it ourselves under the guidance of a paid professional who does the prep work… Hoping to build a 70-80’x180-200’ arena and adding a cover will run an additional ~$200/sq ft, so no not even close to the same cost. I’ll ride in the drizzle :lol:.

[Guilherme]

@TheJenners

Even on the “wet” side of the state, you will not be rained out of riding for most of the year… what most of the country experiences and what our rain really is, is not comparable. Almost anyone can handle 20 or 30 min in the misty blahs. The idea of riding in an indoor during our more frequent winds is another thing, as in I don’t want to die. I’m in a windier area and it can scream and rattle around my house and barn, so the thought of trying to ride in it while it whistles through the rafters is a no from me :lol:.

Also, if you got quotes that are even similar, please share your builder. Either you are getting a cheap covered arena or someone is pricing gouging you for an outdoor. I expect to pay $10-50k (wishful thinking on the low end) for a moderately sized outdoor in a few years because at the bottom of my road 1.5 miles down is a commercial sand and gravel pit, so running up and down a million times with a 6 ton dump trailer will be a cost saver since they charge $100+ per load for a delivery fee on a truck load, plus I have a tractor and a dad and we can do a bit of it ourselves under the guidance of a paid professional who does the prep work… Hoping to build a 70-80’x180-200’ arena and adding a cover will run an additional ~$200/sq ft, so no not even close to the same cost. I’ll ride in the drizzle :lol:.

Covers are great (and superior to full indoors, IMO) IF your local geography is appropriate. Ours is because of relatively low winds, intense summer sun, and lots of rain but few truly damaging storms. And our general temperature gradient is very pleasant. But if I were in Superior, WI it would likely be a “no go.” For at least parts of the PNW it seems to be very questionable.

The closest analog I can think of to a proper open riding arena would be an American football field. They run about 50 yards x 120 yards.* I could not find a specific cost for just the turf (everything was about the full stadium) but a soccer pitch (a close analog) runs $5-$8/square foot. This is for a true all weather surface. But we all know what happens to a wet, turf field when horses use it. It gets damaged and needs time to either repair itself or be repaired. This happens even if the drainage is letter perfect. So when doing a cost comparison between a cover, indoor, and open venue you have some differences in the costs to use AFTER construction. I know this makes it a more complex decision but that’s the way it is!

Perhaps this whole discussion is more proof that horses are luxury goods!!!

G.

*I realize that this size, as well as a soccer pitch, would be larger than most outdoor riding arenas but that’s where I had to go to get cost data. The cost per square foot should not be dramatically different for using those construction techniques on a smaller venue.

[horsepoor]

@SanguinePenguin

Here’s my question: If money wasn’t exactly coming out of your ears, but you might be able to spend a little to get more or less what you want, would you rather have a big (100x200-ish) outdoor arena that had great footing, or a smaller (80x175-ish) covered arena, if you could only have one or the other?

Let’s assume the costs would be similar (which as others have said, is unlikely!), as a lifelong PNW-er, I’d go for the indoor. That size would be plenty big and usable year round. But there is no way those two choices would be even remotely similar in pricing. I’m in SW Washington and have an outdoor that we spent the big bucks to do right. If we had chosen to put up an indoor, much of that cost would have still been incurred (we’d still have to excavate, do retaining walls, put in a base, etc. – you might get away with less rock or perhaps some of the drainage infrastructure wouldn’t be needed, but those are minor costs compared to the whole project). Then add on top of all that the actual building…I’m sure it would have at least tripled the cost, given what I know about similar structures friends have built. In the end, I’m going to suck it up and board in the winter to keep riding (my ring is all weather, but I am NOT – 40 degrees and the wind blowing is no longer something I want to be out in!), and that will cost a lot less than covering my ring.

[Lucassb]

Interesting discussion! I am on the other side of the country and considered the same choice. I ended up going with the outdoor ring but I may cover it later - once my checkbook recovers from this round of arena building and barn renovations, LOL.

[Bluey]

I don’t think that the wind blowing for just riding should be a concern in a covered arena?

Generally you have a pony wall keeping the wind from blowing your footing around, but leave the rest for air flow, even if that air flow can be strong winds.

Now, for the same cost, you can enclose your arena, or only leave one side open, etc.

Where the weather is really extreme cold and much of the time, that is where you do better in an enclosed building, but definitively not where it gets very hot.
Then maybe better consider some kind of open wall/s, or you will need some big fans to keep air exchange in there.

When building a structure, as already posted, covered arenas take more framing, so more steel than enclosed structures.
Then, for enclosed structures you have the cost of walls and the foundation for them, that then is more than mere pylons, so the cost ends up being about comparable.

One trainer here built an enclosed arena and made the sides an 8’ pony wall.
Above that there are sliding windows, that he can open completely and it is like a covered arena in there.
He is one of the top trainers in his discipline and needs a place to train all the time, can’t wait for an outside arena to be just right, or the weather nice.

[mvp]

Having lived in the rainy Willamette Valley for 6+ years, I’d say you’d be happier and be financially ahead with the indoor. I know that I don’t want to have to deal with trying to care for wet tack every day and, if you allowed me to choose to ride or not depending on the rain, I wouldn’t ride nearly enough during our very long rainy season.

Also, engineering drainage here is non-trivial. I have watched people do it wrong and spend tens of thousands re-doing an arena or paddock drainage because they didn’t truly appreciate what it takes to build an all-weather surface on clay soil with this much rain.

As to size, I have been quite happy in 80’x160’+ arenas I have ridden in. I have also lived in the Northeast where very closed in 60’x120’ were the normal dimensions. Anything wider than 60’ feels good. The length of the trusses and the cost of going wide will most likely determine how wide you can build. As someone else said, 80’ wide feels like the minimum I’d want for jumping. It’s plenty wide for flat work and, of course, for a dressage court. I’d build so as to leave the walls as visually open as I could. Lots of folks here leave two sides that are downwind from the prevailing winds open. Letting horses see out of an indoor, even when the space is smaller helps them stay willing to go forward.

As to dust, that’s not such a problem with the side(s) open. A favorite barn design here is a high pole barn/arena with the stalls going down the long side, built as a lean-to, and the paddocks with runs off of those. IMO, the really smart money builds some eaves out from those stalls so as to create a 12’x12’ covered “porch” for the paddocks.

Lots of people build DIY (and pretty good) PVC-pipe based sprinkler systems and that helps with the dust. I have seen some that run along the rail and some that run along the cross members up above. Just design yours with the realities of your water pressure in mind. Nothing is worse that creating a strip of ever-dry sand down the middle. It makes the footing weird and maintenance a little tricky.

I think it does suck a little bit to have to choose between the two, as an indoor does feel confining to a horse in comparison with a larger outdoor. But the cost of building both is so high, and the length of our rainy season is so long, that I still would to the indoor first.

Best of luck in your decision-making!

[oppsfelldown]

Having lived and ridden in the PNW - build a covered arena! you do not have to do a full on indoor with solid walls, do a half wall with a covering (with enough overhang to not soak half the arena. you can always build the stalls into one side like a shedrow and have a a walkway then arena under one big roof.

Riding outside in the rain is for serious tough riders and I am just not that tough. Plus I dont like feeling like a moldy drowned rat after each ride.

[PNWjumper]

I vote for saving the money and building an outdoor.

I’m in the Seattle area. I only have an outdoor arena. There are maybe 3 days a year where I wish I had a covered. The rest of the time I’m totally happy with my outdoor. I focused on good drainage when we built my ring and the footing is fantastic in the worst of the worst rain. Actually, the only time I’m not completely happy is when we’re in the middle of a drought period and my arena gets super dry. I think I would be more frustrated by the amount of watering a covered arena takes (especially considering how much “natural watering” we get) than I’ve ever been by the rain we get around here.

[SanguinePenguin]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. We’ve put building on hold while the market (VERY hot in our area right now… people are loving Oregon at the moment) does its thing. However, I agree that what I really need is a good, big, level place to ride and I can accomplish that best with an excellent outdoor arena, rather than a small, costly indoor. Maybe someday…

[Redlei44]

Sounds like you’ve got a plan, OP. If you ever get back to it, I think that the most important questions are who the facility is for and how many days a year are acceptable to miss due to weather. I have two main experiences to compare. One farm had a 100’x220’ covered, and if that had been the only ring, it would have been great, assuming that dust was properly managed. Plenty of room to do 5-stride lines and room for multiple horses to go around. Absolutely delightful for getting out of the sun and the rain. The other farm had a 65’x125’ indoor, and if that had been literally the only place to ride, I would have found somewhere else to board. Even though it was critical to have shelter during Jan-Mar, to me it was just too small to do regular schooling, have a jumping lesson, or comfortably share with other riders.

I would either do a larger covered (esp. if you have seasonally available grass field or trail options) or a well-draining outdoor, if it is acceptable to you to potentially miss a few days due to weather here and there. Whatever the budget allowed.

[Bluey]

I have seen some covered arenas that are wide but not very long, the arena itself extends about double out in the open.

I think the idea was to have a good covered spot for bad weather, but still have the larger arena for most any other time you didn’t need to ride under cover.

I expect they wanted to cover the other half later, if money didn’t quit reached as they started?

One of those was 120’ wide and long, with the same on the open, all the same foot print to ride.
I wonder if they later did cover the other half, for a 120’ x 240’ covered arena?

If you place the open part where the weather would affect it least, protect the other sides most of the weather will affect you in that area, that would be a solution to not being able to build a whole large covered arena now.

[Jarpur]

@Bluey

I have seen some covered arenas that are wide but not very long, the arena itself extends about double out in the open.

I think the idea was to have a good covered spot for bad weather, but still have the larger arena for most any other time you didn’t need to ride under cover.

I expect they wanted to cover the other half later, if money didn’t quit reached as they started?

One of those was 120’ wide and long, with the same on the open, all the same foot print to ride.
I wonder if they later did cover the other half, for a 120’ x 240’ covered arena?

If you place the open part where the weather would affect it least, protect the other sides most of the weather will affect you in that area, that would be a solution to not being able to build a whole large covered arena now.

I have seen this type of half-covered arena, too, and participated in a clinic in one – where we worked only under the roof. I didn’t venture out into the open half, but I wondered how the footing would respond when some of it is exposed to the elements, but some is not.

[Bluey]

@Jarpur

I have seen this type of half-covered arena, too, and participated in a clinic in one – where we worked only under the roof. I didn’t venture out into the open half, but I wondered how the footing would respond when some of it is exposed to the elements, but some is not.

I expect they stayed off the open side if it was too wet to drag it and ride in it?

Once dry, it would work like the other half.

One of those was a reining trainer’s place.
I expect the whole arena was used to practice for shows, but half was good enough just to train daily and start colts, if the other half was off limits due to weather and/or footing.

[Outyougo]

Native to PNWet.
I enjoy my outdoor arena 75% of the time. And the view from my deck 100% of the time. Horse riding is an outdoor sport.

However lights would be great!

[Candle]

@PNWjumper

I vote for saving the money and building an outdoor.

I’m in the Seattle area. I only have an outdoor arena. There are maybe 3 days a year where I wish I had a covered. The rest of the time I’m totally happy with my outdoor. I focused on good drainage when we built my ring and the footing is fantastic in the worst of the worst rain. Actually, the only time I’m not completely happy is when we’re in the middle of a drought period and my arena gets super dry. I think I would be more frustrated by the amount of watering a covered arena takes (especially considering how much “natural watering” we get) than I’ve ever been by the rain we get around here.

I know this is an older thread, but @PNWjumper can you detail what your footing is? I am just south of Bellingham trying to make the final call on gravel for an outdoor.

[PNWjumper]

@Candle

I know this is an older thread, but @PNWjumper can you detail what your footing is? I am just south of Bellingham trying to make the final call on gravel for an outdoor.

My footing is just coarse washed sand. Layer by layer: 4 inches of inch and a quarter, 4" of quarter inch minus, and then 2 1/2" of coarse washed sand. I absolutely love it. I’ve added sand 3 or 4 times in the last 15 years, and the different times (and different quarries) have yielded slightly different definitions of “coarse washed sand” (sometimes it’s called arena sand, sometimes it’s arena rock, and sometimes it’s just sand), but consistency wise it’s much less refined than “beach sand” with lots of little pea gravel pieces. Drains well and provides nice enough footing that I’m comfortable going as high as I need to with the jumps.

[Candle]

@PNWjumper Thank you! We talked to several quarries, and had been thinking of putting down 2" of 2 1/2 minus (railroad ballast with fines) and then 2" of stone dust on top, then adding another 2" of stone dust when the first layer compacts, and then putting coarse washed sand over the top once it’s settled. Does that sound insane?