Suddenly Dominant Mare....INSIGHT WANTED!

[LittleMissBigTime]

Back Story:

I acquired my mare May 26th. I have known this pony for over a year now, and rode her on and off throughout the year. She was bought and returned to the farm because daughter lost interest in riding. She was sent off on consignment to the lady who first broke her and returned to the farm in May unsold due to the trainer being overcrowded and low on time. Bella is a 5 year old Connemara Cross (guessing, we don’t actually know for sure on breed) 14.2 hands very dainty build. Last summer when I rode her she required 5 minutes of lunging prior to being ridden to get her “wiggles” out (per owner instructions, not my own accord). When she came back to the farm and she was offered to me as my own, she was going very good without lunge work, and performed amazingly with me. From that time to present, she has gained muscle, stamina and has just come a long way in such a short amount of time.

Jump to the past two weeks.

She’s a bitch. There’s no way to put it any other way.
she went from sweet lovey dovey pony to Dominant bitch. Her old owner (she is still boarded where she lived with the old owner) said that she was a VERY hard headed dominant mare when she went for training. I have never experienced (neither last year nor in the near two months that I’ve owner her this year) experienced her acting out dominantly towards me until now. Swinging hind end towards me, pinning ears back and making ugly faces at me, and even going so far as to attempt biting me in the shoulder when I get after her about the hind end. Popping her in the round pen, she occasionally tries to kick out at my head if I ask her to do something that she doesn’t want to do.

Frankly I’m just extremely frustrated with her and feel defeated and my feelings are hurt. We were doing SO good. Started jumping small cross rails, courses, and were really going beautifully on the flat. She was taken on her first trail ride and was such an amazing champ. I thought we were doing GREAT.

The other odd new behavior is her sudden opposition to being saddled/girthed. She has NO ouch in her back or her girth area yet she swishes her tail, half kicks out (not as aggressive as the round pen incidents) and sometimes turns her head and bites the girth. While I first thought it was a bad saddle fit, she also reacts the same way with the surcingle.

Her previous owner told me that she had a basic parelli background. The dressage trainer who broke her had done parelli work for a month before she felt comfortable saddle training her. She seems to think that Bella is just being testy and acting out to see what she can get away with now that I take care of and deal with her almost exclusively. She showed me a few basic parelli type games to establish that I am dominant and that Bella is to respect me. While she remembered the games, she also retalliated on several occasions by attempting to bite me and strike out with her front feet.

Can someone give me insight? Is she just being testy? (She is not in heat) I feel like she hates me all of a sudden. I think I am just heartbroken because we were doing SO well and I was so happy with where we were. And now this. How do I regain courage to work through it with her and what can I do to get through this?

[FindersKeepers]

Well of course with a girthy, angry mare, I think ulcers or hormonal imbalance. (I promise I am not one of those “every horse has ulcers” people) The sudden displeasure with girthing with no evidence of back pain or saddle fit problem, could be ulcers. She has been well travelled and through a lot of hands in her short life and that stress alone could be causing some issues. Could also be an ovarian cyst or tumor that is painful when tacked up and working, as well as pumping her body full of excess hormones making her more aggressive. Has her behavior with other horses changed at all during this 2 week time period? If so, that’s quite an indicator of a hormonal issue.

I would start with a thorough vet exam to ensure there is not a medical reason that she has had such a drastic shift in behavior. If all is ruled out there, try turning her out for a week or two and leaving her alone and see if she settles a little. She may just not be interested in a “training” lifestyle, or she may need someone that can really put her in her place to proceed with a productive career.

[LittleMissBigTime]

Thanks for the quick response!

I had thrown around the idea of ulcers to her previous owner (like I said, she stays on her farm, therefore her previous owner is the only other one who feeds and deals with her from day to day aside from me) and she didn’t think so. I’m about 50/50 on the fence regarding the ulcers. She had been girthy for a bit before the attitude change which first prompted the conversation of ulcers. She shows no other signs aside from the girth and attitude. I also understand some horses show absolutely NO signs. I think I might inquire with the vet on this.

She has gone from having free range of the farm at night with the previous owner/property owner’s two personal horses to now being in a paddock with another mare. The two geldings she was out with came in injured within weeks of each other and now one is on stall rest with 20 internal and 20 external stitches holding his big flap of skin together on his side over his ribs and the other has an 8 month recovery from a random suspensory injury sustained in the middle of the night (horse is not more than a walking trail buddy so wasn’t work related) . I decided to send her back to the paddocks for fear that there was something out there we weren’t seeing that was causing them to get hurt. The mare she’s out with is a middle of the line girl who won’t do more than pin her ears. They’re always side by side when they first go out, and in the morning when they’re brought in, again, always grazing side by side. This was the same with the two geldings she was out with, though she was the boss of that group. She does have a “horse aggressive” mare in the paddock next door who I have seen squeal and cause Bella to decide she needed to kick the fence board in disgust over. I’m not sure if this mare’s negative attitude has caused Bella to put up a front and either revert to being dominant or what. The horse hates other horses, mares or geldings, and goes out alone but has to have a common fence line with at least one other paddock. Maybe I am just making up excuses.

I feel she really does want to work. She gets extremely excited and just has a happy demeanor (well, until two weeks ago) when we would do jump work. She enjoyed seeking contact while flatting, and was really becoming quite the looker. On Saturday she took off with me, bucking and popping up. I got her to stop, but I was so angry at her piss poor attitude that I got off and did some ground work with her instead. I worked her tired and she was calm quite and collected by the end. It almost seemed that being shown the parelli games made her worse than she was as far as the biting thing, possibly because I was challenging her. She’s very smart and very brave. Which could lead to a big issue if this is all simply behavioral. I’m NOT at all educated in the natural horsemanship or parelli type work as I was never exposed to it and have seen so many parelli haters that I never bothered looking into it, but this trainer who started her swore by it because she was so “dominant” and seemed to really do wonders for Bella. Perhaps she needs to go back for a refresh course. I’ve always dealt with geldings and seldom rode mares outside of schooling lessons, so I’m having a hard time distinguishing medical vs behavioral with this girl!

[Calamber]

Treat for ulcers with Gastroguard if you can and do it for at least 6 weeks.

[SLW]

Because of the sudden negative/dangerous behavior which was not present before, in this order I would:

1. Remove all grain and provide only free choice grass hay or controlled grass turnout and hay.
2. Treat with a healing dose of Ulcergard (that is Gastrogard OTC) for two weeks then a maintenance dose for 2 weeks.
3. Have a knowledgeable person check the saddle fit. With weight/muscle gain the saddle that fit 6 months ago can be pinching the tar out of a pony in the present day.
4. If nothing changes/improves after the above then make a vet appointment to see if something is wonky with an ovary.

In the meantime use a good rope halter- I prefer the Clinton Anderson halter with 4 knots- and have someone show you how to tie it on. It is a good correction halter for a horse that is testing you while handling it on the ground. The idea is NOT to lash out at the pony but to be able to give the lightest signal and get a response.

If the pony’s under saddle behavior improved within one week of being on Gastrogard I would start tying her up for several hours a day before she is ridden. Tie her in a stall, under a tree or along a rail. The simple exercise of being safely tied up (controlled) can bring about remarkable positive change, with far less wear and tear on a horse than endless hours of round penning or longing- both of which do have a place in training when done correctly and for a specific goal.

[french_fry]

Agree with FindersKeepers, sudden extreme nastiness in a mare combined with girthiness out of nowhere = ulcers or hormones. Or both! Fun, right?

Get the vet out.

[LittleMissBigTime]

Thanks SLW! This might sound like an idiotic question as I don’t have much experience with Ulcers/treatment of such, but by dosing her with Ulcergard, are there any side effects that I should be concerned with, primarily if she doesn’t have ulcers and I treat her?

She does have a rope halter from the trainer who started her, and I had it on her while her previous owner showed me the different games that Bella knows. She did seem to be a bit more respectful with it on, but still had no problem fighting back, primarily when I would ask her to turn her rear end away and face me. She would quickly do the maneuver, correctly, and then blow up in place and bare teeth and get agitated with me.

Praying that a combination of redirection, relaxation, and maybe taking the pressure off of her for a little bit, and possibly some treatment with Ulcergard can bring us back to where we were so we can continue to move forward. She really is a gorgeous girl and I have really high hopes because when I see her at her best, she is really friggin good considering the very little training she has.

Thanks for everything guys, and everyone else feel free to keep posting with opinions and ideas! I don’t want to lose my confidence with her and create a bigger problem than we already have, if it is behavioral!

[alto]

Regardless if this mare has ulcers or other underlying condition, find someone to work with to teach you how to handle this horse when she gets pushy/nasty/bossy (choose your adjective) like this.

Go parelli if that appeals but any basic horsemanship (ground handling) is good.

Depending on cost in your area, I’d scope for ulcers before treating, at least have a thorough health exam (should be able to pinpoint if it’s more likely to digestive or reproductive).

Have her teeth been done recently?

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=alto;7677582]
Regardless if this mare has ulcers or other underlying condition, find someone to work with to teach you how to handle this horse when she gets pushy/nasty/bossy (choose your adjective) like this.

Go parelli if that appeals but any basic horsemanship (ground handling) is good.

Depending on cost in your area, I’d scope for ulcers before treating, at least have a thorough health exam (should be able to pinpoint if it’s more likely to digestive or reproductive).

Have her teeth been done recently?[/QUOTE]

Her teeth were done at the beginning of the year. The vet was out to see her when I got her in may due to a thick runny nose and a cough while being worked for which he gave antibiotics and suggested aloe vera juice to soothe her throat. Other than that she has been healthy as can be for the three years we have records on her.

Thinking a call to the vet is in order to ease my mind on the ulcer issue.

Do they really develop that suddenly to the point of one day being happy healthy and productive to then being challenging and rude? She is still fairly normal for grooming and being in and around her stall/out to the paddocks.

Thanks for the insights everyone! Hoping its not ulcers or hormones … And that maybe she is just challenging me now that she realizes I’m not going anywhere. Time to put my big girl panties on.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=alto;7677582]
Regardless if this mare has ulcers or other underlying condition, find someone to work with to teach you how to handle this horse when she gets pushy/nasty/bossy (choose your adjective) like this.

Go parelli if that appeals but any basic horsemanship (ground handling) is good.

Depending on cost in your area, I’d scope for ulcers before treating, at least have a thorough health exam (should be able to pinpoint if it’s more likely to digestive or reproductive).

Have her teeth been done recently?[/QUOTE]

You cannot scope hindgut ulcers and they are the most longterm to heal. A sudden change like this and girththiness is either ulcers or hormones, treat for ulcers and see what you have, saves money. Also, Gastroguard, not Ulcerguard. What the heck does BigGirl Panties (hate the term) have to do with it? You just need to look at the whole picture, she has been moved around quite a bit and likely has ulcers which the vet may or may not see, pretty classic symptoms and yes, they can finally get so painful that they can appear to be overnight. As far as ground handling is concerned, if she is painful, what in the name of God are you going to accomplish until you can start relieving the pain?

[GraceLikeRain]

Does this seem like a feasible chain of events: Pasturing change could have created stress, stress caused ulcer, ulcers caused pain, pain caused dominant but formerly sweet horse to become defensive, defensive behavior was allowed to slide a few times, dominant side becomes increasingly apparent as horse pushes boundaries, rider tries to reestablish boundaries, horse becomes a PITA?

If so, I definitely think treating ulcers it a good way to start.

Regardless of discomfort, her demeanor is completely unacceptable. I just made a post over in breeding about the virtues of backing. I believe that backing really does solve so many issues. Hold her in the middle of the isle while you groom. If she pins her ears she gets backed. If she threateningly cocks a back leg she gets back. If she tries to nip she gets backed. Her snottiness immediately results in a calm and consistent correction. Make things painfully black and white for a while. No hand treats, she isn’t allowed to rub her head on you, no letting a behavior slide because you are tired or rush, etc.

It sounds like someone may have put a lot of time into moderating her disposition but the pain has caused her to backslide. She is now going to challenge your directions, especially if she is a dominant pony mare.

I would only round pen if you are comfortable truly following through. Ideally the round pen is less about wearing out a horse and more about controlling the body. Disobedience (changing direction, changing gait, kicking out) is immediately addressed by asking the horse to do the opposite. Personally, my thought process would be: If she changed direction I’d cut her off and spin her back the other direction, if she slowed down I’d ask for the next gait up, if she speeds up then she is forced to change direction, if she kicked out she would have to canter her hinny off for several laps past when she thinks it is fun, etc. I’ve witnessed horses go from charging, aggressive messes who took 45 minutes to listen, to horses who step into the round pen and instantly say “yes m’am” from the first step. It can do wonders to for their general demeanor but you have to feel comfortable dealing with her at her worst and following through no matter how long it takes.

[sid]

I’d have her tested for tick borne disease (Lyme, etc.) right off the bat and do a CBC and chemistry, plus testosterone ( would not eliminate granulosa cell tumor as a cause of the suddent change).

These are the very first things that I would do. And don’t blame her…obviously she can’t help what has happened to her.

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7677641]
Does this seem like a feasible chain of events: Pasturing change could have created stress, stress caused ulcer, ulcers caused pain, pain caused dominant but formerly sweet horse to become defensive, defensive behavior was allowed to slide a few times, dominant side becomes increasingly apparent as horse pushes boundaries, rider tries to reestablish boundaries, horse becomes a PITA?

If so, I definitely think treating ulcers it a good way to start.

Regardless of discomfort, her demeanor is completely unacceptable. I just made a post over in breeding about the virtues of backing. I believe that backing really does solve so many issues. Hold her in the middle of the isle while you groom. If she pins her ears she gets backed. If she threateningly cocks a back leg she gets back. If she tries to nip she gets backed. Her snottiness immediately results in a calm and consistent correction. Make things painfully black and white for a while. No hand treats, she isn’t allowed to rub her head on you, no letting a behavior slide because you are tired or rush, etc.

It sounds like someone may have put a lot of time into moderating her disposition but the pain has caused her to backslide. She is now going to challenge your directions, especially if she is a dominant pony mare.

I would only round pen if you are comfortable truly following through. Ideally the round pen is less about wearing out a horse and more about controlling the body. Disobedience (changing direction, changing gait, kicking out) is immediately addressed by asking the horse to do the opposite. Personally, my thought process would be: If she changed direction I’d cut her off and spin her back the other direction, if she slowed down I’d ask for the next gait up, if she speeds up then she is forced to change direction, if she kicked out she would have to canter her hinny off for several laps past when she thinks it is fun, etc. I’ve witnessed horses go from charging, aggressive messes who took 45 minutes to listen, to horses who step into the round pen and instantly say “yes m’am” from the first step. It can do wonders to for their general demeanor but you have to feel comfortable dealing with her at her worst and following through no matter how long it takes.[/QUOTE]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that. Time to make a call to the vet since the general consensus seems to be treat for ulcers first. Jus didn’t know a whole lot about them so was unsure about symptoms vs behavioral. Thanks for the input on that! Going out to see my girl tomorrow evening. Will just spend time pampering her while we wait for the vet to get out to see her. You’re all right in no sense of pushing her until we rule out pain or medical issues. Just wanted to see what others ideas might have been before making a move to that given her past.

I wont be upset with her, especially since its apparent she may be dealing with a bunch of cruddy possibilities

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7677715]
Thanks for the input on that! Going out to see my girl tomorrow evening. Will just spend time pampering her while we wait for the vet to get out to see her. [/QUOTE]

Yeah for getting the vet out!! I don’t know what you mean by pampering, but if she is swinging her ass to you- NO pampering, no games. She may be uncomfortable, but that behavior is not acceptable.

I commend you for your efforts and do not want to come off too hard, but do not encourage dominant behavior. I’m not sure what pampering means ( hopefully a good grooming, bath etc) and not just spoiling her with treats etc.

I wish you all the best!!!

[LittleMissBigTime]

Oh gosh no treats! Meant groom and bath!!! I don’t condone and won’t allow the rude behavior! I will still discipline her appropriately if she acts out

[SLW]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7677297]
Thanks SLW! This might sound like an idiotic question as I don’t have much experience with Ulcers/treatment of such, but by dosing her with Ulcergard, are there any side effects that I should be concerned with, primarily if she doesn’t have ulcers and I treat her?

She does have a rope halter from the trainer who started her, and I had it on her while her previous owner showed me the different games that Bella knows. She did seem to be a bit more respectful with it on, but still had no problem fighting back, primarily when I would ask her to turn her rear end away and face me. She would quickly do the maneuver, correctly, and then blow up in place and bare teeth and get agitated with me.

Praying that a combination of redirection, relaxation, and maybe taking the pressure off of her for a little bit, and possibly some treatment with Ulcergard can bring us back to where we were so we can continue to move forward. She really is a gorgeous girl and I have really high hopes because when I see her at her best, she is really friggin good considering the very little training she has.

Thanks for everything guys, and everyone else feel free to keep posting with opinions and ideas! I don’t want to lose my confidence with her and create a bigger problem than we already have, if it is behavioral![/QUOTE]

Gastrogard and Ulcergard are the same product- the first is sold via a veterinarian to treat a clients horse for ulcers. Ulcergard is available over the counter and labeled for preventative dosing of ulcers in horses. If this is all new to you then for sure work with your veterinarian. Your vet should also make some recommendations on the mare’s diet if you all decide to treat for ulcers.

I know nothing about the Parelli system of games with horses but a lifetime of working with horses (and still learning all the time) has shown me that a rope halter and impeccable timing when correcting a bad behavior in a horse produces results. I do use a chain over the nose for some controls and corrections but with what you describe having someone experienced watching you work with your mare would be priceless and save you some aggravation.

I have a Connemara mare and these horses are top tier horses. Tough as tacks but sensitive. Someone told me yesterday at a riding clinic with my mare “if your mare was out in the wild she would live to be 50 years old because she notices everything.” If you work on improving the way you handle your mare on the ground it will transfer over to when you ride her. Good luck!