Exactly what Marwencol said. Squeeze shoot for the foal. Someone, vet or you, give her some drugs. Get the fly mask off…put a leather halter on. Put a catch rope on the halter. Leave them in the stall until u can walk up to the filly and catch her. How about a treat…we use peppermints.
Ok, this is a serious business, but there is no need to put down the mare.
If the mom herself hasn’t been handled, she obviously won’t be very happy with people approaching her baby! And the filly’s just imitating mom.
I would try to exhaust the mom, exercise them both in the afternoon but only mom in the morning, and try to get her as tired as possible. If she has a bad temper, plus the extra energy from the grain, plus a baby at her side, plus being locked in a box all day, she will obviously go mad!
As for the fly mask, I don’t think you need to drug them, just put them in a squeeze shoot. Like some other posters said, I would also halter both mom and baby and leave a rope on tied to the alter and going all the way to the floor. They will notice their step, and as such they will be more submissive. It will also make it easier for someone to catch them.
Here in Europe, there are still some breeders who let the moms and babies be out until the foals are 3, and by then some of them have only seen people a couple of times. It does make it harder to handle them, but its not the end of the world. Just be careful and handle them appropriately.
Remember, if the mare hasn’t been correctly handled, maybe its not an issue of temper - its an issue of trust, boundaries and respect.
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;6487596]
I dunno. I’ve known of a mare or two that are sweet puppy dogs, 100% of the time, until they have a foal to protect. Then they got nasty! But once the foal was weaned, mares were puppy dogs again.
Also, we don’t know what the circumstances were here, and the OP wasn’t asking for breeding advice. ;)[/QUOTE]
Then our family must have had the greatest mares on earth for the past 3 generations, because none of them have ever turned vicious when they have a foal. There is a world of difference between a mare protectively guarding by putting her body between you and foal, and viciously attempting to attack your face with a wide-open mouth full of teeth, kicking, lunging at you just because you walk by the stall going about your daily business, and the like.
I’d load their butts on a trailer and send them back.
No matter how fancy they may be it’s not worth the time, the money, or the life.
Horses are a dime a dozen.
Some of the responses here just amaze me. And…the alter clearly has not checked back to answer obvious questions about where these two came from, how long they were away, if they are completely new to her barn, if the mare was handled previously, if this is a maiden etc.
Jumping to “she should be put down” or “she should never be bred again” from a mere 2 paragraphs must make you all better horsemen than I am.
I have been to MANY breed shows where every third mare leans out of the stall and snaps at you or lays back ears and kicks as you walk by. Often foals imitate this behavior. If this mare has been turned out exclusively in a herd situation, this is even more common as she is treating humans like herdmates and protecting her baby.
Obviously, since OP is leading them in and out of the pasture, this is not an “all of the time” kind of thing.
Tie the mare to the wall, corner the baby (at least two people), squeeze her against the wall so she can’t kick and pull off that damn flymask. I wouldn’t sedate her. I can’t even think of a time in the vet clinic where we sedated a baby for something so minor - and let me tell you. I have seen my share of VICIOUS mares in a vet clinic. So, two times kicking in a stall doesn’t seem like a death sentence to me, but maybe I am just used to seeing them at their worst.
Not one person said put them down? Where are you reading that? The only person that mentioned “putting down” was SCMSL and they said they WOULD NOT do that.
I saw someone severely hurt by a very aggressive mare. You are darn straight if she was MINE I would not breed her. They bred her year after year, in the hospital one day, holding her for AI the next. Their horse, their life.
I understand there are vicious mares, but temperment is HUGE for me and I would not want one violent toward people (for lots of reasons!) and definitely wouldn’t breed one I couldn’t even water without fear my eyeballs were going to be ripped out. My own personal choice. Obviously there are those (not referring to the OP at all here, as we have no idea the situation behind the two she has, and she clearly is NOT enjoying their aggression (who would!?)) that have no issue with violent horses. No thank you.
All the breed shows I’ve been to the only ear flapping was to other horses. I’ve also worked at and been involved with large breeding operations, and foaling facilities. If every 3rd horse I walked by took a kick at me, yeesh!!! That is not “normal” by any standard I have witnessed. 
Sad! I’m going to go home and hug my mares tonight!
OP - good luck!!! So sorry you are dealing with this, and please be careful!
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;6487937]
I’d load their butts on a trailer and send them back.
No matter how fancy they may be it’s not worth the time, the money, or the life.
Horses are a dime a dozen.[/QUOTE]
Here here. OP you got screwed.
Yes but at a vet clinic you typically have more help. I doubt that the OP can have have multiple people on hand daily to retrain this mare and foal. It is a bloody dangerous situation. She isn’t leading the both out the pasture (only leading the mare) and can’t even walk into the stall.
I’ve know people killed by kicks. And the OP seems very aware of the danger. To me the issue isn’t so much as the fly mask…but the long term training. This is going to be a huge effort to make these two safer to be around. I’m sure it will be possible…but personally, I wouldn’t have time for it nor the desire to take the risk…and there will be a lot of risk in dealing with these two for a while.
If the OP wants to work with them…then possibly a bit of sedation would help make the process a bit safer. And I agree…seperate them. If the filly is healthy, she should be ok to be weaned a bit early.
I wonder if the mare is just on the fight from being transported to a new place, and the whole abrupt change in her routine has made her extra protective of her foal. Not that it’s an excuse, mind you, but it might be a reason.
I would do as some other posters have suggested, and get some help to squeeze the foal in corral panels, get the fly mask off and a halter with a catch rope on to the foal. I’d probably also opt to wean her so she doesn’t pick up anymore nasty behavior from her dam.
I would go with the sedation option. I feel it would be less stressfull for a panicked, untrusting foal to just be sedated than squeeze him in narrow contention and perform whatever has to be performed against his will. Drugs will make him dizzy, and he won’t really “care” what is happening. No stress, no potential injuries, etc. Flymask removed, new thin leather halter on, and I would add a short rope on it. Easier to catch and control the head to avoid the butt.
Now that I’ve said that, I can’t remember having to sedate any foals except for castration… (obviously lol) But this is what I would do if I were in OP’s position.
I would wean as well. Now. First week will be hard, then it will be much easier to work each problem at a time. If the filly is alone, she WILL eventually seek contact. If contact IS rewarded with FOOD, she will seek more. If you can get contact without putting yourself in danger, then I would wait till filly wants contact in a positive way before trying anything with her. Let her know you are not the evil to kill. You have to get rid of the “fear”, then you’ll be able to work the “respect” issue. A horse that does not respect AND is scared is the most dangerous ones. If you don’t get rid of the fear, and gain respect, then you’ll have a horse who respects you because he fears you. And he won’t be trustworthy. So you’ll be stucked with the same problem of the dangerous horse.
I would not breed her again neither. There’s enough excellent broodmares on the market right now without agression issues (with and without a foal at their side) to waiste time and put ourselves at risk on a dangerous one. Hey. Breeding is hard enough, why should we have to deal with this over the top?? I like my breeding farm to be quiet, peacefull and full of happy mares. It makes my mornings easy, and it’s safe for my family, visitors and clients. All year round. Personnally, I don’t like troubled horses.
I’m not downplaying the danger of being kicked, trust me. I was rehabbing just this type of situation and was double barrelled in the abdomen shortly after a c-section. But it was my fault, I let my guard down and this mare had been beaten on a regular basis with a stall cleaning rake, so her stall retraining was terrifying.
That said, I understand that she is only one person, however if she could borrow some help, a forced weaning and a come to Jesus moment for a 12 week old might be all that is necessary. In 20+ years of working at vet clinics, I can’t say that I remember any 12 week old foals who continued to come back for more day after day or were vicious about it. Yes, we had help, but usually only upon admittance - after that, administering meds etc, it was your problem to find out what worked.
I have taken on lots of these cases over the years. Like the suggestion of a short shank left on the foal (leather of course) and would love to know the back story on the mare.
I’m not going to make a temperament evaluation on a mare that we have no idea what she’s been through. I can tell you that if I bred a horse and she had been on my property her whole life and was aggressive and not a good mom, no, of course I wouldn’t breed her, but we don’t know the story on this mare, so I wouldn’t make any long term life altering evaluations of her without knowing the whle story.
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;6489198]
I was rehabbing just this type of situation and was double barrelled in the abdomen shortly after a c-section. [/QUOTE]
OMG! I am so so soo glad you are okay! Yikes!!
Sometimes you have to get some sense knocked into you before you learn that you didn’t know it all! 
Ah, youth!
lessons: listen to the horse. if they say no, it probably isn’t the end of the discussion - don’t blow it off. 
That said, that mare did come around. And I knew that she was good for her previous owner before he retired and let the barn help take over, so it was situational. The trick with the adults is to make them understand that the action is unacceptable without frightening them into more unacceptable (and likely dangerous) behavior. With babies, a quick “CTJ” moment followed by lots of praise, pats and repitition is usually sufficient.
Sorry I haven’t posted sooner and thanks for the various suggestions. Here’s the update…
I’ve been turning them out in the round pen (filly just follows of course, still can’t get near her) and then doing some round pen work with them. Filly is freaked and ripping around but mare is pretty calm, I keep her working till she’s submissive.
Have been catching the mare at the stall door/round pen gate with grain and she now nickers when she sees me coming and heads over to be caught. She is quite head shy and all movements around her need to be slow or her eyes bug out and head jerks up. Very sensitive around the nose, not possible to get a chain over her nose without a major issue so not even trying. Have been working on giving her a good forehead and neck rub and working my way down to the nose. Have not had another ear laid back from her or any more threats but mind you I haven’t done anything other than catch her with grain and then lead and chase a bit in the round pen. I feed/water through the stall bars and feed door.
I feel like the mare will come around OK though I don’t think I will ever trust her or turn my back on her. Hopefully she’ll be better with more handling and getting the foal off her. The filly is another story, I am not comfortable attempting to squeeze her in the stall with a panel and I don’t have a chute of any sort. I think she would get very violent if we tried and either hurt herself or us.
Had the vet here yesterday and discussed with him. He lent his pole syringe to someone and never got it back but gave me instructions on how to make one. So we are going to do that and jab her with some Dorm in the stall, then get mare out and deal with the mask, haltering, worming etc. The filly does not know what grain is so trying to doctor some feed with tranq at this point I don’t think will be successful.
I think after that I’m going to keep up with the round pen work with the pair, hopefully it will start to get through to the filly as well, teach her what grain is, and then wait to wean the filly at 4 months or as close to it as I can, I’m not terribly comfortable weaning at 3 months. But I’ll play it by ear. If things go south the filly gets weaned!
Wish me luck :eek:
Spend the money…
for a Clinton Anderson ( ONLY Clinton Anderson) rope halter for both of them. The best $$ you will spend for this situation. You won’t need a chain and if you don’t need the very effective discipline the halter provides then you just have a halter on them. I have one in every size, and I will say it is some of the best $$ I have ever spent…and I have wasted quite a lot over the years. 
I even breed my stallions in the CA halter, there is not a chain on my place. It works just like a regular rope halter until you need it for a misbehaver, then it is MORE than effective. Their secret is the material the halter is made of and the placement of their knots…I highly recommend them.
I know you all love your parachute cord halters but I really wouldn’t put anything on a horse who is wearing their halter 24/7 that won’t break if it gets hung up on something. In the olden days rope halters were made of clotheseline rope and had hardwear that could break but with knots there is no weak point on the halter. You can make a safety halter from a two buckle crown piece by swapping the original nylon or triple thicknes crown piece for a single or double thickness leather crownpiece. And the foal isn’t heavy enough to break more than a single thickness halter if that. I am in no way saying safety of you should be risked, by all means keep a halter on them 24/7 but not parachute cord halters please. I think you have a clue and will figure this out. I do side with the people who are looking at temperament as an issue of breeding suitability. The horse peeps of the world are not getting any more experienced or smarter and are getting more willing to contact a lawyer than count a learning experience. I also have a mare who is on the wild side if she feels threatened, she was likely trapped and captured regularly as a sick foal and then never handled unless for basic needs. Her first foal is a hot thing herself, very reactive and very sensitive…a pros horse perhaps. There was a time when there was a place for those horses but there is less and less a place today. PatO
I don’t recommend CA halters for turnout…
If you read my first post, I said put a turnout/breakaway halter on them but when you are leading and working them, the CA halters are the BEST. You don’t have to rub a hair off of them, that is what I love about them. They get their attention without hurting them. I have used them on bad actors, saints, sinners and a rogue mustang stallion…all with the same results. They respect the halter immediately…love’um.
Pretty sure you have to be able to catch them in order to put any kind of halter on them.
I know you all love your parachute cord halters but I really wouldn’t put anything on a horse who is wearing their halter 24/7 that won’t break if it gets hung up on something.
I agree. Having worked in a tack shop while studying at university, I heard my share of horror stories about rope halters and nylon (Hamilton like) halters that did not broke when horse got stucked, and rip parts of his face off… Like a glove. Or injuries to the neck. Those clients sharing their stories were all then looking for cheap leather halters… So much than I started to ask clients when they were halter shopping if the horse would have to wear it 24/7… And if answer was yes… I was stongly suggesting them to either buy cheap leather halter or VERY cheap nylon halter, the ones with tiny metal parts so it would obviously break…
NEVER leave a horse with a rope halter without surveillance. NEVER.
[QUOTE=columbus;6490034]
I know you all love your parachute cord halters but I really wouldn’t put anything on a horse who is wearing their halter 24/7 that won’t break if it gets hung up on something. In the olden days rope halters were made of clotheseline rope and had hardwear that could break but with knots there is no weak point on the halter. You can make a safety halter from a two buckle crown piece by swapping the original nylon or triple thicknes crown piece for a single or double thickness leather crownpiece. And the foal isn’t heavy enough to break more than a single thickness halter if that. I am in no way saying safety of you should be risked, by all means keep a halter on them 24/7 but not parachute cord halters please. I think you have a clue and will figure this out. I do side with the people who are looking at temperament as an issue of breeding suitability. The horse peeps of the world are not getting any more experienced or smarter and are getting more willing to contact a lawyer than count a learning experience. I also have a mare who is on the wild side if she feels threatened, she was likely trapped and captured regularly as a sick foal and then never handled unless for basic needs. Her first foal is a hot thing herself, very reactive and very sensitive…a pros horse perhaps. There was a time when there was a place for those horses but there is less and less a place today. PatO[/QUOTE]
When would that have been? Back when horses were used for actual work they couldn’t be stupid vicious and dangerous. Such horses would have been seen as a hazard and a timewaster and shot.
Difficulty is in no way correlated with talent in the real world and even pros don’t want to mess with difficult horses that may injure them for no real reason in the blink of an eye. Working with reasonable horses is dangerous enough.
