Suggestions/Guidance for Orlando/Indorado/ Rex Magna mare out of strong mare line

[LPiper]

Looking for some help from the knowledgeable jumper breeders. I have an Orlando/Indorado/RexMagna.
https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/2045705/kvf-jamaica-s

Here is her mare line
https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/280197/wendy

Mother Wendy has produced a 1.40m horse ( byToulon) and a 1.45m horse (by Tempranillo)
Grandmother Kristin produced two ISH 1.60m horses (by Dominard and by Lancelot) and two 1.30m horses (by Burgraff and Willem)
Great Grandmother produced 4 more 1.60m horses, including one which is a full sibling to Kristin

My goals for breeding are to breed for myself (late maturing is fine) with the hope to produce a 1.50m horse.
My mare is smaller (15.3hh). She has excellent technique, reflexes and willingness. She is bold and very simple. At 5 years of age I can put almost anyone one her and she will jump from anywhere. I do not have a good idea of her scope yet, as I have not jumped her overly big. She is behind due to my own pregnancy, and therefore only showed around the 1.0m last year. I would like to add power, size, make her a little more uphill. She has good basic gaits and good push. I would like to maintain or add blood (I like a lot of blood), maintain her technique, maintain her soundness. I would also like to maintain her willing attitude and desire to jump.

I do not have a good conformation shot of her, but if there is considerable interest, I can get around to that. She is a little rectangular and perhaps a little short legged. She does not appear downhill, but does travel a bit downhill (although, that is due as much to greeness as anything else, she does run herself a bit into the ground at the moment.) She has good power in her walk and trot. The canter is still a little unbalanced, but shows good push.
Her mother has, according to her breeder, produced a couple of quite complicated horses that are quirky and difficult to reason with. As I have not bred my mare yet, I have no idea if she will throw more of her own temperament or not.

Any guidance or ideas would be much appreciated! What nicks with her bloodlines? what should be avoided with her blood lines? What should not be doubled up, and why?
Thank you in advance

[TKR]

Great questions and how fortunate for you to be starting with a mare from such a proven family of producers! I am not a jumper breeder, but good luck with her. You might ask Kathy Hickerson at Majestic Gaits farm as she carries many of those stallions’ frozen and might know what would work well. Good luck!

[LPiper]

@TKR

Great questions and how fortunate for you to be starting with a mare from such a proven family of producers! I am not a jumper breeder, but good luck with her. You might ask Kathy Hickerson at Majestic Gaits farm as she carries many of those stallions’ frozen and might know what would work well. Good luck!

Thank you! I will reach out.
I’m really hoping some folks reply to this. The NA breeding community can only get better through education and mentorship. I totally understand that specific stallion suggestions are difficult without knowing my mare, but based on the information provided, are there directions I should look or avoid? Are there stallions in her pedigree I should not double up on? Is there potential conformation concerns etc if one does?
thanks again! I know there’s a ton of knowledgeable people on this forum and I look forward to learning from you!

[weixiao]

Do you want to go with stallions who are available fresh or are you considering frozen as well? Do you want KWPN/KWPN approved stallions or would you be looking at any additional registries?

[weixiao]

Are there any stallions out there or horses out there jumping that you look at and think “that’s something I’d really like to ride/that really looks like my type of ride”?

Some stallions I like that might fit what you’re looking for, are proven, available fresh in NA (as far as I know) and I believe are KWPN registered or approved:

Rash R

Utopie

Navarone probably won’t give you a lot more size but seems to produce great brains, good canters, and a lot of athleticism.

Valentino

ROC USA

Vaust S

Tacorde

Jethro Tull (less proven, but I like him a lot so I’m throwing him out there)

Chin Quidam VDL

Laroche VDL

[LPiper]

@weixiao

Are there any stallions out there or horses out there jumping that you look at and think “that’s something I’d really like to ride/that really looks like my type of ride”?

Some stallions I like that might fit what you’re looking for, are proven, available fresh in NA (as far as I know) and I believe are KWPN registered or approved:

Rash R

Utopie

Navarone probably won’t give you a lot more size but seems to produce great brains, good canters, and a lot of athleticism.

Valentino

ROC USA

Vaust S

Tacorde

Jethro Tull (less proven, but I like him a lot so I’m throwing him out there)

Chin Quidam VDL

Laroche VDL

Thank you! I will look into several of those. Yes, I do prefer proven. She is not yet, so I will go proven. I don’t require fresh.
My favourite top horses (of any gender) today are: comme il faut, HH Azur, Clinta, DSP Alice, and many more. Basically, all blood horses with agood deal of heart and desire.

[weixiao]

If you’re considering frozen as well, I’d look at Arezzo, Cardento (if she has correct legs), Untouchable 27 and maybe Luidam.

[LPiper]

@weixiao

If you’re considering frozen as well, I’d look at Arezzo, Cardento (if she has correct legs), Untouchable 27 and maybe Luidam.

Both Arezzo and Untouchable would double up heartbreaker. Is that beneficial?
why do you recommend Luidam

[weixiao]

@LPiper

Both Arezzo and Untouchable would double up heartbreaker. Is that beneficial?
why do you recommend Luidam

YMMV/Opinions differ on line breeding. I wouldn’t say I see many double up on Heartbreaker, but I do see Nimmerdor line bred often, and I have seen Heartbreaker linebred a few times and I personally really, really liked those horses so I’ve always kept it in mind. Unfortunately, the names aren’t springing immediately to mind but two that I know of are a horse called Bonheur S (https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1635725/bonheur-s) that I saw a number of years ago and thought it just looked like the coolest horse ever to ride, who is by Toulon and out of a Heartbreaker mare. If you google the name and his rider (Luca Moneta) you’ll be able to see some old videos. I’m afraid to include too many links in case it means the reply gets eaten, which sometimes happens.

The other I can think of right away is a mare called Bieke van de Elshoeve (https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/348530/bieke-van-de-elshoeve). It was a long time ago and I doubt there is any video of her anywhere, but she was really cool. I really liked one of her foals I saw a few years ago too and would have liked to have bought it.

I also see from a quick search that VDL Stud bred a stallion named Garezzo by Arezzo and out of a Padinus (Heartbreker) mare that seems to be doing very nicely in Italy jumping some 2* Grand Prixs.

Not saying that is clear evidence it should be done, just that I’ve seen it and liked the horses.

As for Luidam - he just sprang to mind for me. I liked him, I think he produced some super horses and felt like he was a very good producer given the range of mares he was used on, and he is one I always think of in context of good canters and some blood and height.

Are you wanting to stay with KWPN or other registries as well? I’m no expert at all, really just throwing out names based on horses I’ve seen and liked and sound like they fall into the category of what you’re looking for.

[Dutchmare433]

This years VDL Stallion show is up on clipmyhorse.tv. It might help you get a quick look at a bunch of their stallions. They give the pedigree, jog the horse in hand, show some video, and talk a little bit about what the horse throws and what type of mare might be best.

[LPiper]

@Dutchmare433

This years VDL Stallion show is up on clipmyhorse.tv. It might help you get a quick look at a bunch of their stallions. They give the pedigree, jog the horse in hand, show some video, and talk a little bit about what the horse throws and what type of mare might be best.

Very interesting! Thank you

[LPiper]

Ok, I’ve worked my way through most of the stallion suggestions. It seems that only Valentino and ROC USA are proven (offspring performing above1.40m), but Roc USA are all out of one TB mare (what a mare!!), and my mare is not the most TB like horse.
I haven’t had a chance to watch the stallion show yet. (Working healthcare, do NOT have extra time on my hands these days) but I am looking forward to it. I will also definitely look into Valentino more. Thanks for the help so far!
I should add, that of my goals, adding height is the least important. I should have said length of leg.

[weixiao]

@LPiper

Ok, I’ve worked my way through most of the stallion suggestions. It seems that only Valentino and ROC USA are proven (offspring performing above1.40m), but Roc USA are all out of one TB mare (what a mare!!), and my mare is not the most TB like horse.
I haven’t had a chance to watch the stallion show yet. (Working healthcare, do NOT have extra time on my hands these days) but I am looking forward to it. I will also definitely look into Valentino more. Thanks for the help so far!
I should add, that of my goals, adding height is the least important. I should have said length of leg.

Where did you look up offspring results? This isn’t true.

According to Horsetelex results, which may miss out on some, here are the number of offspring showing 1.45m+ by some of the other stallions I mentioned:

• Rash R has 7 offspring, including two 1.60m horses
• Utopie has 6, including two 1.60m horses
• Navarone has 7, including three 1.60m horses
• Vaunt S has produced at least one 1.50m horse out of a limited number of foals
• Laroche has 8, including five 1.60m horses
• Cardento has 107 results for 1.60m horses, including several licensed stallions, 15 1.55m horses, 70 1.50m horses, and 98 1.45m horses.
• Untouchable 27 has 20, including six 1.60m horses - Ben Maher/Nick Skelton’s Untouched, one of my very favorites, included)
• Luidam has 57, including seventeen 1.60m horses.

[LPiper]

@weixiao

Where did you look up offspring results? This isn’t true.

According to Horsetelex results, which may miss out on some, here are the number of offspring showing 1.45m+ by some of the other stallions I mentioned:

• Rash R has 7 offspring, including two 1.60m horses
• Utopie has 6, including two 1.60m horses
• Navarone has 7, including three 1.60m horses
• Vaunt S has produced at least one 1.50m horse out of a limited number of foals
• Laroche has 8, including five 1.60m horses
• Cardento has 107 results for 1.60m horses, including several licensed stallions, 15 1.55m horses, 70 1.50m horses, and 98 1.45m horses.
• Untouchable 27 has 20, including six 1.60m horses - Ben Maher/Nick Skelton’s Untouched, one of my very favorites, included)
• Luidam has 57, including seventeen 1.60m horses.

Yes, I should clarify, I had not yet looked at the 3 you mentioned frozen. I could not find LaRoche on horsetelex. Thank you for updating.
I actually straight up missed utopie! I will explore further.

[weixiao]

@LPiper

Yes, I should clarify, I had not yet looked at the 3 you mentioned frozen. I could not find LaRoche on horsetelex. Thank you for updating.
I actually straight up missed utopie! I will explore further.

@Edgar from Eurequine is active here on this forum and maybe he can give you some feedback on whether Utopie would suit your mare, or I am sure he would be very responsive to emails if you reached out to him.

[LPiper]

After a further deep dive in her pedigree, she has 1 cross to Capitol and no crosses to ladykiler in the first 9 generations! 3 crosses to Corde, a couple to Ibrahim and she has Dorette twice. But guys, no ladykiller and 1 capitol!
since I’m looking for power, a more uphill canter/way of going and length of leg, is there any reason to steer clear of carthago blood that I’m not thinking of? Also, is doubling Darco a bad idea? (Remember, she’s a wee little mare)

[Majestic_Gaits]

Glenfiddich (Baccardi VDL - Corrado). I had one from him on a mare that I needed size and wanted top character and sold to a Grand Prix rider as a foal. Super character and really good mover with a great canter.

[LPiper]

@Majestic Gaits

Glenfiddich (Baccardi VDL - Corrado). I had one from him on a mare that I needed size and wanted top character and sold to a Grand Prix rider as a foal. Super character and really good mover with a great canter.

Interesting. I don’t think I want more corrado blood though. I find the corrado’s can be a little heavy on the front end. She is as well. I should clarify that her canter shows good push and scope, but can be on the forehand.
do you have any further suggestions?

[Majestic_Gaits]

Navarone could work and puts on a super character, super jump too with a big uphill canter but not like to throw too much size as he is 16-2. He has some big offspring but usually out of bigger mares. I do love them, easiest stallion and offspring to work with.

I would look at Zapatero VDL (Chin Chin - Ircolando). He has thrown tall, modern type with super jump and movement. Good characters with good energy for the upper level and proven.

I wouldn’t double up on Heartbreaker.

I have had some super nice Crespo VDL (Canturo - Candillo) and he has thrown size. Maybe not as blood type though but great characters. He is in the USA now.

[LPiper]

@Majestic Gaits

Navarone could work and puts on a super character, super jump too with a big uphill canter but not like to throw too much size as he is 16-2. He has some big offspring but usually out of bigger mares. I do love them, easiest stallion and offspring to work with.

I would look at Zapatero VDL (Chin Chin - Ircolando). He has thrown tall, modern type with super jump and movement. Good characters with good energy for the upper level and proven.

I wouldn’t double up on Heartbreaker.

I have had some super nice Crespo VDL (Canturo - Candillo) and he has thrown size. Maybe not as blood type though but great characters. He is in the USA now.

Really interesting! Thank you! I love zapetero. I hadn’t considered him closely. I definitely will now. And crespo is very cool as well.
Zapetero would bring that Capitol and landgraf blood through the dam side. Do you know, is he known for adding power and scope?