Summit IM joint "supplement"

[Simkie]

Okay, further…if this is rebranding of some sort of corneal storage media (which is how chondroitin seems to be used in eye surgeries) those products often look contain other things that you would not want to inject into your horse…like human insulin. Or they contain hylauranic acid, which hey–could have some use in horses, but that’s not how this stuff is being marketed.

As for a device that is only chrondroitin, there’s this: http://bladderhealthuk.org/bladder-c…ations/uracyst Which does not seem to be licensed in the US as anything at all.

Google doesn’t turn up a low molecular weight chondroitin solution being sold for medicine. Or as anything else.

Which begs the question–what exactly IS this stuff?? Because it sure doesn’t look to be a real FDA approved drug or device at ALL. So where is it coming from? Who is making it?

[Simkie]

Oh oh oh. There is this.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scrIp…pmn&id=K870251

It gets discussed in papers about eyeball surgery, but no websites market it. Does anyone work for a corneal transplant surgeon? :lol: I bet someone like that could tell us about it.

But the question remains–WHERE is this joint stuff coming from? Is it CSM? Is it Uracyst? Or is a guy in his garage mixing up some powdered condroitin and “sterile” water?

The other device things that have been used extra label for joints aren’t SHY about what they are:

Polyglycan

Ichon

Map-5

They are up front about it. This Summit stuff is sooooo shady.

[RegentLion]

I emailed my vet the page.

Lots of vets on the FB group seem to be endorsing it, or at least willing to try it. Somewhere on those groups they listed the molecular weight…ETA they claim the only ingredients are the chrondroitin abd “sometimes” a buffering agent if there’s a ph issue in processing. Why would ph vary? I’m not a chemist so i have no idea if this is a reasonable normal variation in production or not.

when I emailed for their “studies,” none were “handy” so they’re putting together a packet. Which IMO is alarming. Why wouldn’t you have access to your own studies testing your product?!

[Leather]

@Simkie

But that begs the question…why are you interested at all in an injectible chondroitin? I don’t think there’s an approved product like that at ALL on the market?

The AAEP believes the GAGs in Adequan are primarily chondroitin sulfate.

https://aaep.org/horsehealth/lameness-joint-medications

The most common example of this type of product is Adequan. This product is used only by intramuscular injection, however can also be used intraarticularly under strict aseptc environements and by combinging antibiotics with the injection… These products are primarily used as the building blocks for successful cartilage reparation. This product is also usually used when cartilage damage is already present rather than in acute joint inflammation. Arteparon is the human equivalent to Adequan and the chemical structure of the two products is identical. Chondroitin sulfate is the most commonly used GAG in these products and is harvested from bovine lung and trachea.

The description of Adequan Canine is much more detailed than the horse version, and specifically calls out chondroitin sulfate. While I can’t find explicit information that they are the identical product, I wouldn’t think that Luitipold would have two different sources.

The active ingredient in Adequan® Canine is polysulfated polycosaminoglycan (PSGAG). Polysulfated glycosaminoglycan is a semi-synthetic glycosaminoglycan prepared by extracting glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) from bovine tracheal cartilage. GAGs are polysaccharides composed of repeating disaccharide units. The GAG present in PSGAG is principally chondroitin sulfate containing 3 to 4 sulfate esters per disaccharide unit. The molecular weight for PSGAG used in the manufacture of Adequan® is 3,000 to 15,000 daltons.

[Simkie]

@RegentLion

when I emailed for their “studies,” none were “handy” so they’re putting together a packet. Which IMO is alarming. Why wouldn’t you have access to your own studies testing your product?!

Takes some time to make up something that looks legit :lol: :lol:

Ask her what device it is, too!

I’m REALLY suspicious that someone is just mixing this in a garage or home lab with chondroitin powder from China.

[Leather]

I’ve seen the same FB discussion of Summit and agree that they are playing fast and loose with the whole drug/supplement line. I predict a Warning Letter from FDA is in their future. :lol:

I spent yesterday grilling a friend of mine who has a PhD in medicinal chemistry and did a lot of work with GAGs about this product. Her assessment is that it could be reasonably similar to Adequan.

But of course given that we’re in the biotech industry and deal with FDA on a daily basis we take whatever the company says with a GIGANTIC grain of salt.

[lifeishorsesarelove]

This is so sketchy I can taste the pencil lead. You couldn’t pay me to stick my horse or my dog with this stuff- it may be no more or less effective than an oral joint supplement, but the "no studies handy thing makes me think they have no idea what they’re doing and the product is probably not manufactured well or consistently or even safely.

nope.

in theory maybe worth testing. I am not signing my most prized possession and valued family member up to be part of their “free” (to the company!!) Trial.

[RegentLion]

It’s being “discussed” extensively on FB and several vets seem to be endorsing it, so I suspect there will be some significant test subjects in the near future.

[TWH_Girl]

If it’s so sketchy why is my very well known and revered lameness vet saying to try it?? He didn’t say it was a magic bullet but did some checking and felt comfortable enough with me trying it. He DID NOT feel that way about Pentosan from the sketchy sites or ICHON or Polyglycan.

I have not totally decided if I will try it yet…but so many other people use so many other non FDA tested products on this site I do not see how this product is any different, better or worse. People use injectables from Pre-Race and ulcer meds fom Abler. How is this situation different?

[Simkie]

@TWH Girl

If it’s so sketchy why is my very well known and revered lameness vet saying to try it?? He didn’t say it was a magic bullet but did some checking and felt comfortable enough with me trying it. He DID NOT feel that way about Pentosan from the sketchy sites or ICHON or Polyglycan.

I have not totally decided if I will try it yet…but so many other people use so many other non FDA tested products on this site I do not see how this product is any different, better or worse. People use injectables from Pre-Race and ulcer meds fom Abler. How is this situation different?

Dunno, ask him? Ask him what it is (if it’s actually an FDA device, it’s licensed under a different name) and where it comes from. Who makes it?

And I seriously doubt the people in this thread would use injectables from prerace! :eek: I see NOTHING making this any better than what prerace sells. At least Ichon and Polyglycan and MAP-5 have been licensed by the FDA for something, and their marketing teams aren’t selling them as a DRUG when they are only a device. This crap comes from god knows where and is god knows what and is being marketed as you would Legend or Adequan.

[Leather]

I’m guessing that many vets aren’t well versed in the FDA regulatory framework of drugs vs. devices vs. supplements.

Manufacturers of the devices and supplements like to push the envelope and blur the lines making their products seem very drug like.

I’m surprised that a vet that is unwilling to use ICHON or Polyglycan would green light this.

[RegentLion]

I am comfortable using abler because the drug (omeprazole) has been tested and found to work. the FDA hasn’t approved it but they have tested it and it is omeprazole. Omeprazole has been used and tested in horses for treating ulcers.

[RegentLion]

Update!!!

still waiting on Summit reps to email me research studies… Guess they’ve been misplaced.

[Simkie]

@RegentLion

Update!!!

still waiting on Summit reps to email me research studies… Guess they’ve been misplaced.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I asked the FDA. They said it was an unapproved animal drug and linked me to this page:

https://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/guidancecomplianceenforcement/complianceenforcement/unapprovedanimaldrugs/default.htm

If anyone gets the info of what corneal surgical device this is, please share!

[ClerkofCourts]

I’m reserving judgment until there is more info or anecdotal evidence. I too was a part of the fb vet page post and requested the studies they reference on their site (see link). I also emailed them in request of those studies. The vet promoting it responded that they had to put it together in response to the overwhelming sudden interest. I’m guessing due to the fb post (which as it were, was just a regular person asking for advice about it). As I understand from the post, it is FDA approved for humans not for horses. My vet just said a flat out - if it’s not fda approved, no. Of course she’s being on the safe side, perhaps she will change her tune if they every produce evidence. They also have a money back guarantee.

This is my first time looking at their actual fb page, it seems they’ve got several other riders on board now (in addition to aforementioned questionable pro)

For my horses sake I hope they do. If the results are as great as they say, it could be a game changer for us as $$ is def an issue.

https://www.summitjp.com/how-it-works
https://www.facebook.com/summitjp/

[Simkie]

@ClerkofCourts I contacted the FDA. They say it’s unapproved. Period. Which makes it equivalent in “legal” and “safe” as the unapproved stuff that companies like horse pre race sells.

If the people who sell this stuff would like to tell us what device they are repurposing and rebranding, then we can confirm that is is approved by the FDA as a DEVICE. But that still doesn’t mean it’s approved as a DRUG. If it is actually approved as a device, then it is identical in status to Ichon and Polyglycan and those things.

But there is 0% chance that this stuff is approved as a drug by the FDA. Examples of drugs approved by the FDA would be Legend or Adequan (veterinary) or Synvisc (human.)

[RegentLion]

It would be a game changer for me too. But I just can’t risk it… I WANT it to be legit but the red flags be a wavin’, so I’m going to bide my time.

Still waiting for the studies.

And the point that Simkie made up thread-about not knowing which component of the Polyglycans caused inflammation-… Is sobering. IF it’s the chondroitin, then this product is potentially harmful.

But I WANT to believe it’s legitimate and the studies are good and it’s not someone ONLY trying to make a buck w/a questionable product.

@ClerkofCourts

I’m reserving judgment until there is more info or anecdotal evidence. I too was a part of the fb vet page post and requested the studies they reference on their site (see link). I also emailed them in request of those studies. The vet promoting it responded that they had to put it together in response to the overwhelming sudden interest. I’m guessing due to the fb post (which as it were, was just a regular person asking for advice about it). As I understand from the post, it is FDA approved for humans not for horses. My vet just said a flat out - if it’s not fda approved, no. Of course she’s being on the safe side, perhaps she will change her tune if they every produce evidence. They also have a money back guarantee.

This is my first time looking at their actual fb page, it seems they’ve got several other riders on board now (in addition to aforementioned questionable pro)

For my horses sake I hope they do. If the results are as great as they say, it could be a game changer for us as $$ is def an issue.

https://www.summitjp.com/how-it-works
https://www.facebook.com/summitjp/

[Leather]

@RegentLion

According to one of their “distributors” it’s formerly known as condranol.

I’d be curious to know if it’s at all related to the Condranol that has an inactive Drug Master File from 1979 and a patent for use in corneal transplants, or if they just used the name.

https://patents.google.com/patent/CA1179264A/en

However even if it at some point some part of it received some sort of FDA approval or clearance, they are making all sorts of drug claims (treating/curing disease) for a completely new intended use and patient population without FDA approval, which FDA really doesn’t like.

And it’s interesting that they can’t seem to find these clinical studies they reference on their website.

[ClerkofCourts]

Feels like staring at the puppy in the window right now, so close you can almost feel it lol. I commented again on the FB Vet corner string, there is no news there yet. Haven’t received anything via email. Might be too much to hope for a magic bullet Will let you guys know if get anything further.

@RegentLion

It would be a game changer for me too. But I just can’t risk it… I WANT it to be legit but the red flags be a wavin’, so I’m going to bide my time.

Still waiting for the studies.

And the point that Simkie made up thread-about not knowing which component of the Polyglycans caused inflammation-… Is sobering. IF it’s the chondroitin, then this product is potentially harmful.

But I WANT to believe it’s legitimate and the studies are good and it’s not someone ONLY trying to make a buck w/a questionable product.

[Simkie]

So let me get this straight. There’s a vet group on FB that’s pimping this stuff hardcore, but they won’t pony up the studies or say exactly what FDA approved device it is?

Shaaaaaaady. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:

(Might want to reconsider how much faith you have in that particular FB group, too!!)