Super speedy horse--advice needed

[JCS]

Hi trail riders! I have a new boarder in my barn who is a novice rider but is super sweet and eager to learn. Her horse is a 19-year-old gaited spotted saddle horse. She rides in Western tack with a curb bit (it has shanks and a chain but is jointed in the middle like a snaffle). The issue is that her horse wants to go Really Fast All the Time and of course the rider is often hoping for just a pleasant, calm trail ride. I feel bad for her… she loves loves loves this horse, and the horse is quiet to handle with zero spook and excellent ground manners. We had my dressage trainer try riding her and she was the same for her (although, being a pro, she has the tools to handle it), so we know it’s not just pilot error. Horse behaves like this in the arena as well as on trails. She also has fun tricks like the half-rear-and-spin when she doesn’t want to go a certain way, and the leap-up-and-down-in-place when the rider prevents her from racing forward like she wants to. She is not a bolter–it’s not that she’s trying to run off with the rider–it’s just that her natural way of going is extremely fast and she loves to go.

Any advice to help this rider? One thing in particular I’d like input on is her use of the bit–she tends to ride on contact all the time (because she’s trying to restrain the horse from running) but it seems to me that a curb bit like this is meant to be ridden on a draped rein with contact only when needed. I’ve not ridden the horse myself.

Thanks!

[tabula_rashah]

Chances are with a gaited horse that he was trained to go like this. A lot of the yahoo gaited trainers around here teach that the horse is all go as soon as your foot hits the stirrup. They also seem to always be ridden on a tight curb rein- usually with a horse really leaning on the bit. I reworked 2 horses trained like this during the past summer. Both reacted at first like you are describing - as soon as they were held back, they got mildy panicy but as long as they were going FORWARD they were great. Both took a good bit of work- the first one (a 10 year old mare) I spent a lot of time in the ring with in a loose ring snaffle, keeping her mind busy and giving tons of praise whenever she chilled and just walked- even if it were only for a second. I really, really had to ride her off my seat and stay out of her mouth. The second horse (I’d actually bought him for myself and tragically lost him in a freak accident 3 weeks later) I worked a good bit out on the trail by himself just staying out of his mouth and asking a lot of technical trail questions to keep his brain occupied. I also did a lot of stopping to let him get a bite of grass, etc- anything to teach him that being chill was “ok” and that he didn’t have to have the afterburners on all of the time. With both of them, I was also actively working on installing very specific aids for moving up into their gait. Neither was a job at all for a novice to do-

[kkmrad94]

I would suggest that she takes lessons with the trainer who knows how to rate the horses speed. I had a horse that didn’t respond well to a simple woah. I am not very experienced and took lessons with a trainer who understood the horse and could get him to go a reasonable pace (he was never a plodder).

[arapaloosa_lady]

I’d recommend she take a few months of dressage lessons this winter to establish a better line of communication with her horse. It’s not very safe to be out on the trails on a horse that’s not rateable. I’ve certainly had a few instances where I was very happy that I had immediate brakes, leg yield, jump, etc. to avoid a dangerous obstacle (huge downed tree, pothole, oncoming truck, etc.). And no dressage trainer is going to let her ride him on a tight rein with a curb bit so that will be fixed.

[wendy]

get rid of the bit- those broken-mouth shanked bits are nonsensical devices that don’t allow any true control of the horse- they don’t allow for any proper use of the curb, and of course they don’t work like a snaffle at all.
She’ll probably have to start him over in the ring in a regular snaffle and work on basic skills before switching back to a trail bit and trying the trail again. It’s very likely he doesn’t have any real training. Many of the gaited trail riders I’ve met just teach the horse to go flying off down the trails as fast they can go, and they don’t have any education at all in what the aids mean.

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=wendy;7868489]
get rid of the bit- those broken-mouth shanked bits are nonsensical devices that don’t allow any true control of the horse- they don’t allow for any proper use of the curb, and of course they don’t work like a snaffle at all.
She’ll probably have to start him over in the ring in a regular snaffle and work on basic skills before switching back to a trail bit and trying the trail again. It’s very likely he doesn’t have any real training. Many of the gaited trail riders I’ve met just teach the horse to go flying off down the trails as fast they can go, and they

don’t have any education at all in what the aids mean.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of this, except on a horse with good basics, a curb with a broken mouth piece can be a great bit, but not with a horse leaning on it, and without a good basic training on him
Many gaited horses are put in long shanked curbs,{ walking horse bits ), without ever having learned a thing about collection, giving to a bit, body control, etc. They have just been ridden off of the hands, much like a race horse, that runs by leaning on the bit
A horse that always wants to go,is often due to the fact that is all he knows. Horses are creatures of habit! I have ridden with some gymkana horses, and many of them are idiots on the trail, for much of the same reason They have never learned to relax and go on a loose rein, at the gait and speed asked for
I agree the horse needs to go back to a true snaffle and have holes in training filled in, However, at age 19, ridden this way all of his life, how much is he really going the change, esp ridden by a novice after any retraining, if done?
I was told along time ago that you can always speed a horse up, but fixing a horse that wants to be fast is more difficult. Aother trainer told me that whenever you wind up pulling on a horse, versus pushing him (this means driving with light legs when needed) , you are losing. You will never u[out pull a horse.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe many gaited horses are started in a shanked bit, with the direct rein phase completely skipped
My advise, buy another horse to love. Riding should be fun, and a trail horse should go along on a loose rein, coming and going at the speed asked for, making the ride enjoyable and not something you endure.

[Guilherme]

The curb bit is not a problem in a horse properly prepared for it.

Odds are this one has a pretty “hard mouth” and some time with a good trainer will be required to teach the horse to rate.

The rider needs to learn to ride. That means lessons with a good teacher who will teach classical equitation. I’d recommend you get her a copy of Common Sense Horsemanship Vladimir Littauer. It will require some “translation” to make his method work in a Western saddle but it can be done.

She is going to need a Plan B. It’s quite possible that an aged horse that has lived its entire life riding one way will be a real challenge to “retrain.” Maybe it can be done and maybe it can’t. This option has to be “on the table.”

G.

[beau159]

First of all:

1. How often does she ride?
2. How far?
3. What is the horse being fed?

If the horse is getting extra calories (and energy) through grain or certain hay sources, that should be changed.

If she’s only riding once a week, that’s going to keep the horse very energetic. With my horse Red, the more he is ridden, the more mellow he gets. I ride a minimum of 4 miles for his rides (when he’s ridden on a daily basis), usually closer to 6. He’s got the energy and needs the miles. If he only gets ridden once a week, he is a fire-breathing dragon of energy that wants to go-go-go.

And ideally --> Is this horse REALLY a good match for the rider? A horse that rears and spins on the trail doesn’t sound ideal. There’s nothing “fun” about that.

So first I would look into the horse’s diet and exercise program and see if there is a change that may help bring down the horse’s energy.

But I do agree that this rider should take lessons to learn how to effectively slow the horse down. Serpentines (using one rein at a time) and “stair-case” patterns are a way to control a horse’s speed without being on their mouth all the time, and using the turning action to slow them down.

The exact type of contact will depend. If my horse Red is having a go-go-go day, I am going to have light contact on the bit. And gasp its a curb bit. Steady even contact is not what hurts a horse’s mouth. It’s when people pick up contact suddenly and/or jerk. If you are already “in their mouth” with light contact, you can ask them to do just about anything with the bit.

While I agree that this horse is most likely missing some basic training, it is not always the automatic answer to go back to a snaffle bit. And we can’t make these assumptions because we haven’t see the horse/rider in action ourselves.

[JCS]

Thank you all… this is very helpful, and many of you have hit on things that have crossed my mind as well. She has been taking lessons with my dressage trainer, and that has helped tremendously, but she has had to stop for a while due to a temporary financial situation. Hopefully she will start taking lessons again when she is able. She’s well aware of the value of lessons, especially with such a challenging horse. Full-time retraining with a professional is not an option, both due to the owner’s finances and to the fact that the horse is 19… I mean, how much can we expect to accomplish at her age?

Another issue that I have brought up to her is the fact that the horse is simply not ridden enough. She rides 2 to 3 days a week for about an hour, a combination of trails and arena work. I think this mare needs 4-5 days a week of work, if not more. Unfortunately the owner and I are both working mothers of young children and neither of us has time do devote to that. (Honestly, nor do I want to! I have my own horses to ride.)

My trainer and I did discuss the fact that she probably should have a different horse. I think the owner has thought of this as well, but she is very attached to her mare, and can’t afford two. Plus, with a 19 year old that acts like this, who is going to buy her?? I think she’s kind of stuck, unfortunately. I haven’t brought it up to her myself yet. I did offer her the use of my Appy mare who is dead quiet and awesome on trails. So she does have that option if she wants to get more riding time without so much struggle.

[JCS]

Oh and there was a question about feed… This is also something we’ve addressed. When the horse first moved here she was quite rough and skinny, so I fed her a decent amount of TC Senior to get her weight up (2 quarts twice a day). Her weight is good now so I’ve cut her back to 2 cups twice a day, with no discernible effect on her behavior. She is on 24/7 turnout with buddies in a large pasture.

[the_phantom]

Many folks have given good suggestions, and I just wanted to add a bit since I have experience trail riding several rushy horses.

I think the main factor that will determine whether this will end up with a great long-term partnership or a wreck is the temperament of the horse – the reason she is forward. Some horses will be forward because they are enthusiastic (or were trained that way), with no ill intent towards the rider. Others are forward because they are some combination of nervous, insecure, or disrespectful towards the rider.

If the former is the case, improving the situation is just a matter of the rider practicing effective ways to manage the mare’s speed and the mare learning to respect those cues. I see no reason why this can’t work out, as long as the rider is generally safe – i.e. is not tense under normal circumstances, and knows how to apply emergency brakes – and as long as the horse isn’t doing things that make her feel unsafe. I’m not too worried about horses that pull at first - I’d personally rather have a rushy horse than a lazy one. I actually had a horse legitimately bolt with me on trail with zero prior warning this summer (very scary), but the reason was just that he was excited and I was not riding him the way he was used to. I changed the bit and changed to micromanaging his speed a bit more, and it was like riding a different animal the very next ride. (Of course I wouldn’t put just anyone one a horse as athletic as that one, but it doesn’t sound like the mare in question is doing anything quite so dangerous…)

On the other hand, I’ve ridden some ponies who were rushy on trail because they were anxious and bored. They very slowly improved somewhat for me, because I rode them very carefully and knew how to handle their quirks. Many people just couldn’t or wouldn’t ride them, because the minute pony found out the rider wasn’t quite confident or paying attention the behavior would get progressively worse until rider was dumped.

It’s impossible to know which is the case for the mare without seeing her in person, but I’d just say to watch carefully to see that the situation improves rather than degenerates. I grew up riding rushy horses, and I think that not only can it work out, but it’s great experience for a learning rider – it teaches you to ride the horse and insist it listen to you (without being able to bully it around, since you can’t outpull it), rather than being a passenger.

[wendy]

I think you’d have to meet some of the trail-riding gaited people who encourage this kind of charge down the trail before you’d understand that the horse is just not trained at all, despite its age. I’ve spent years riding down trails and I still remember the one (and only- since then I refuse to ever ride with gaited people ever again) trail ride I had with gaited horse people. I ride over to the trail head, and wait. I’m the only one familiar with the trails and am supposed to be the guide.
They arrive, fit their horses into their long-shanked bits and heavily padded saddles, get on, and that’s it. The horses spot a trail (not the planned route at all) and go tearing off down it. Me, the guide, ends up galloping behind them shrieking to watch out and slow down the trail is quite rough. The riders can’t control their horses at all- they are holding onto the reins like they are holding a beer and a remote, sitting on a couch, and the horses just tore along at anywhere they spotted a trail-like appearance. How they didn’t die on some of the rougher patches of trail I don’t know-my extremely handy and trail wise arab wouldn’t go over some of that stuff at the speed the Barcolounger gaited horse people thought was fine. I think they thought it was like sitting in a car as it tore down the road, or maybe they thought it was like playing a video game. A horse that wouldn’t go at a tremendous pace would have been sold by them immediately as boring/lazy. They liked gaited horses because you could just lounge on them without having to do that silly riding stuff.
So I present this to suggest the horse might quickly respond to some actual training efforts. I don’t think the gaited horses really liked doing what they thought they were supposed to do. The pinned ears and tucked heads kind of suggested otherwise.

[LSMarnell]

[QUOTE=wendy;7870130]
The riders can’t control their horses at all- they are holding onto the reins like they are holding a beer and a remote, sitting on a couch, and the horses just tore along at anywhere they spotted a trail-like appearance. [/QUOTE]

And a lot of times they ARE holding onto a beer! I run into people regularly on trails local to our area who fill their saddle bags with CASES of beer and fly along drinking all day! And yes, the majority are on gaited horses.

I have seen many, many, gaited horses ridden in this fashion. No real training at all, they just are taught to gait at full speed. At 19 y/o, if that is the way she has always been ridden I would say it’s going to take quite a bit of work to correct.

I agree 100% with tabula that it is not a job for a novice.

[wendybird]

I would be most concerned for the rider’s safety. Sending the horse off for someone else to fix, may not work for her.

Recently we had a rather stunning paint 16.2 and full of himself, and his new owner who is capable on a steady horse but was finding her new horse too much of a scary handful.
We had to find a way for her to manage him.
So we set off down the trail and he fought her from step one.
We simply turned him round in tight circles (Think emergency stop) until he wanted to stop, then let him stop/relax and then step forward on a loose rein when asked. If he jogged, or leapt forward, or humped his back, round he went again. His rider got giddy, wanted to give up and go home, but we were on a mission, so persevered for about 30 minutes and arrived home still moving rather forwardly.
The next ride we went out and had the same performance - but we DID get some sensible walking for a few strides before he lost it again. The third ride a few days later was the breakthrough - it took only one session of giddying turns before he walked sedately along the track on a loose rein. I think we had to intervene another couple of times during that ride, but really, once he realised that he could relax he was great. He can even stand still for maybe 20 seconds!
The rather super thing is that he has since done a couple of 20mile endurance rides, and is going along nicely on minimal contact. He’s got that 100 mile look in his eye as he canters along. Lovely!

[Malda]

[QUOTE=LSMarnell;7870452]
And a lot of times they ARE holding onto a beer! I run into people regularly on trails local to our area who fill their saddle bags with CASES of beer and fly along drinking all day! And yes, the majority are on gaited horses.

I have seen many, many, gaited horses ridden in this fashion. No real training at all, they just are taught to gait at full speed. At 19 y/o, if that is the way she has always been ridden I would say it’s going to take quite a bit of work to correct.

I agree 100% with tabula that it is not a job for a novice.[/QUOTE]

I’ve ridden gaited horses like this when I was looking for a trail horse and I don’t feel safe on the trail riding a horse with no brakes. My advise is to find another horse. At 19 years old, even if she’s able to re-train him, there’s a good chance in an emergency situation the horse will revert back to its original training and she won’t be able to stop him.

[LSMarnell]

This sign http://tinypic.com/r/2ebb8g9/8 is actually on our trail system. The gaited horse people think it’s funny, but it shows the mentality…

[JCS]

Thanks again for all the excellent advice. I do want to clarify that the horse will stop if you make her. She actually will stop and just stand quietly. But what she won’t do when she’s in a “mood” is walk or gait at a rational rate of speed–if she’s going, she’s GOING! But you can make her stop. I don’t necessarily feel like she’s unsafe, just unpleasant. Also we’ve found that she tends to be much calmer (although not always) if she’s with one of my horses. If my guy is in the lead just calmly walking, she will walk along behind him for the most part. So we’ll try doing a lot more of that to help her realize that it doesn’t have to be go-go-go all the time. I have hope yet that she’s not irredeemable.

The current plan is to basically keep doing what we’re doing until the weather makes the trails unrideable, then start fresh in the spring and see what we’ve got and reassess at that point.

[GaitedGloryRider]

Ah yes, because all gaited horse people are drunk hillbillies crashing around on dangerous horses at mach 5.

I get the sentiment, I know the type seen plenty out on the trail and they annoy me (and my other responsible gaited-horse-riding trail buddies, and pretty much all gaited horse people who ride/train/enjoy their gaited mounts responsibly) as much as you non-gaited folks.

But really LSMarnell, could you be any nastier stating your opinion and painting us all with the same brush? You seem like the type that offer a snide remark and eye-roll to anyone ambling along at a nice relaxed dog walk down a flat open trail simply because their horse goes different than yours. Stop painting us all with the same brush, your class is showing.

[tabula_rashah]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;7871554]
Ah yes, because all gaited horse people are drunk hillbillies crashing around on dangerous horses at mach 5.

I get the sentiment, I know the type seen plenty out on the trail and they annoy me (and my other responsible gaited-horse-riding trail buddies, and pretty much all gaited horse people who ride/train/enjoy their gaited mounts responsibly) as much as you non-gaited folks.

But really LSMarnell, could you be any nastier stating your opinion and painting us all with the same brush? You seem like the type that offer a snide remark and eye-roll to anyone ambling along at a nice relaxed dog walk down a flat open trail simply because their horse goes different than yours. Stop painting us all with the same brush, your class is showing.[/QUOTE]

Please don’t think I meant all gaited trainers- there are plenty of good ones out there. But I think the very sweet, easy going nature of the walkers can sometimes be a bad thing for them in that the yahoos out there do tend to gravitate toward the them.

[GaitedGloryRider]

[QUOTE=tabula rashah;7872005]
Please don’t think I meant all gaited trainers- there are plenty of good ones out there. But I think the very sweet, easy going nature of the walkers can sometimes be a bad thing for them in that the yahoos out there do tend to gravitate toward the them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the fact that Walkers tend to be much more tolerant of idiocy does make them idiot magnets. Take fast, forward, smooth-riding horses that tend to be extremely tolerant and forgiving…obviously they are much more attractive option to those who want to ride like fools than other breeds who would be more likely to clean a person’s clock for acting and riding so poorly.

OP, if the horse goes nicely when out with other calmer, slower-going horses my suggestion would be to keep doing what works. Eventually it will sink in and the horse will learn to relax. The mare doesn’t sound mean…more like she is just doing what she knows and what she thinks is expected of her.

I’ve had my fair share of “speed demons” over the years. One of the most valuable tools I’ve found for bringing them around to my way of thinking is using other calmer, slower-going horses to facilitate the retraining process. If you’ve got one horse that has been taught to go-go-go all the time and ride it consistently with other more relaxed slower horses many times horse will learn to adjust its gait to the horses it is with over time. I have a gelding that started out just like this mare you describe with the added bonus he was atrocious about rearing when he didn’t get his way and had NO brakes whatsoever. Forget about getting him to stand still once you were mounted. He came from some yahoo that would do exactly as has been described in this thread-just hop and ride hell bent for leather and that is all this horse ever knew. It took an entire season of riding him several times a week with a pokey old Quarter Horse but he learned to slow it down. We would start rides out with the Quarter Horse in front and stay that way until he was good and relaxed. I’d bring Speedy up in front (oh how that horse loves to be in the lead) and he could stay out there until he started getting himself wound up then back behind is buddy he would go. Wash, rinse, repeat. For months. Eventually I ended up with a super fast gaited horse that would relax when asked, drop his head and walk nice and slow as any old babysitter type, turn it “on” when asked but also knew to turn it “off” when asked. I think this worked with him (and several others I’ve had also) because they weren’t mean horses, they really did want to work and please their rider, they just needed to learn what was expected of them now wasn’t the same as what had been expected of them in the past. Riding them with slower, calmer horses helped them learn that in a much safer manner than I could do on my own much the same as hitching a horse new to driving up with a seasoned driving horse can help that new horse’s education in the harness. It sounds like you’ve inadvertently stumbled on to this tactic by the way you describe the horse being calmer when out on the trail with your horses. It’s not a quick fix but it does work with the right horses. Might be worth sticking with that approach for a while and see if she comes around.