Guilty as charged on several of them.
#5?
Care to explain #5?
5. Be aware of what RESPONSE you are rewarding each time you give out a cookie or toy. What did you click—did you see eyes? Did you want to see eyes when your dog is performing that skill? What did you intend to reinforce? Does the dog know?
First, the ‘did you see eyes’ threw me off until I read it for a third time. I still am a little perplexed. When shaping, the dog does not know your intention and isn’t supposed to. What am I missing?
I’m pretty good at some of these and pretty bad at some others. It is a thought-provoking read. Add a lump o’ salt since SG’s methods are too extraordinary for the average owner.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;6489177]
Care to explain #5?
5. Be aware of what RESPONSE you are rewarding each time you give out a cookie or toy. What did you click—did you see eyes? Did you want to see eyes when your dog is performing that skill? What did you intend to reinforce? Does the dog know?
First, the ‘did you see eyes’ threw me off until I read it for a third time. I still am a little perplexed. When shaping, the dog does not know your intention and isn’t supposed to. What am I missing?
I’m pretty good at some of these and pretty bad at some others. It is a thought-provoking read. Add a lump o’ salt since SG’s methods are too extraordinary for the average owner.[/QUOTE]
I think she was referring to eye contact. If you watch any of her vids, her BC have their eyes glued on her
"What did you intend to reinforce? Does the dog know? "
The question about reinforcement was re: make sure you know what your criteria is. The bit about the dog knowing, is probably in reference to AFTER you reinforce. Does the dog know what was reinforced?
I think she’s just trying to remind you to make sure you are clicking for what you actually want to click for. If you want the dog to be focused on that target, and you click while the dog is looking at you instead, you didn’t click for the right thing.
Add a lump o’ salt since SG’s methods are too extraordinary for the average owner.
her methods are VERY extreme- her dogs basically live in a state of exploitive, manipulative “Boot training camp” 24/7. The methods she uses to establish a “relationship” with her dogs could come straight out of a CIA brainwashing manual.
I don’t think following her methods to the letter is necessary or even productive, nor do they produce a healthy dog-owner relationship.
Sometimes it’s ok to just play with your dog or just be with your dog without worrying about how it will affect your dog’s performance.
But if you take her methods with LOTS of grains of salt, they do make for handy training hints to help people improve their methodology.
please explain what you mean by this.
I don’t think following her methods to the letter is necessary or even productive, nor do they produce a healthy dog-owner relationship.
really? I can’t imagine she doesn’t have a healthy relationship with her dogs. what makes you say this?
Sometimes it’s ok to just play with your dog or just be with your dog without worrying about how it will affect your dog’s performance.
I’m pretty sure her dogs are just dogs when they aren’t in a competition or training. They live in the house with her and aren’t crated 24/7.
I don’t think anyone has all the answers but I think Susan Garrett is pretty flippin’ awesome. She works a lot with BCs and they are intense and I think her training methods are shaped for how to properly cultivate and channel that intensity.
Susan’s 2x2, “it’s yer choice”, and other training tools are widely used in the agility world.
Very funny video showing the difference between correctly building drive and incorrectly building drive. In this video you see a very obedient dog but also a lot of drive and personality. This guy doesn’t look brain washed to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA
I hope that one day I can run my dog with a tenth of the skill and finesse she possesses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmeIrf8tos&feature=plcp
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;6489600]
I don’t think anyone has all the answers but I think Susan Garrett is pretty flippin’ awesome. She works a lot with BCs and they are intense and I think her training methods are shaped for how to properly cultivate and channel that intensity.
Susan’s 2x2, “it’s yer choice”, and other training tools are widely used in the agility world.
Very funny video showing the difference between correctly building drive and incorrectly building drive. In this video you see a very obedient dog but also a lot of drive and personality. This guy doesn’t look brain washed to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA
I hope that one day I can run my dog with a tenth of the skill and finesse she possesses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmeIrf8tos&feature=plcp[/QUOTE]
me too. Susan Garrett, is simply awesome. I cannot imagine having a dog that you can do what she did in that last vid, if you don’t have a GREAT relationship with your dog.
has anyone read Shaping Success by SG? Did you like it?
Count me in as a SG fan - particularly as she really seems to understand the BC drive - and how to create it if the BC is a little weak :lol:
What I like about SG is when she picks your question to answer on her blog or sends you a personalised training tip or just some plain old fashioned encouragement. (Which I did receive when I posted about my older BC’s obsessive play/praise drive - to the point that she lames herself wanting to continue training/playing. Her advice worked for my older dog … dont have that issue with the younger one :).)
I know exactly what Wendy is talking about. There is no doubt that SG is a brilliant trainer and handler, but her dogs don’t ever get to just be dogs. They are working or pottying or in their crate. They are not just dogs and they don’t live in the house with her like regular dogs.
I’ll share info that leads to this conclusion though I’m not the poster you quoted. Ruff Love. SG has responded to such accusations.
I have followed everything she’s written while raising Swagger. Her philosophy is control reinforcement not the dog. Boy oh boy does she control reinforcement, otherwise nothing would be accomplished as a pet or contender. Her lists of reinforcements are exhaustive: from basic needs (pottying & water) to tug and everything in between. Like NILF x 100.
I still stand by my statement that what she practices is not for every owner least of all the average pet owner.
You have to be extreme (in time, effort, energy, drive) to get where she is. Then you can charge $5000 for a behind-the-trend running contacts course! :lol:
I would absolutely train with her if I ever won the lottery.
[QUOTE=fourmares;6490418]
I know exactly what Wendy is talking about. There is no doubt that SG is a brilliant trainer and handler, but her dogs don’t ever get to just be dogs. They are working or pottying or in their crate. They are not just dogs and they don’t live in the house with her like regular dogs.[/QUOTE]
have you trained with SG to know they don’t ever get to just be dogs? or live in the house?
I think Ruff Love is not what most think it is.
I have the book here in front of me and in Chapter 2 she writes about how long does the program last, the first sentence says: “Your dog’s progress determines the length of the Ruff Love program.”
They do always look to her for environmental rewards, and I’m not sure that is inappropriate.
They do crate quietly, and again, is that inappropriate?
They also remain where she puts them, for however long she needs them there, is that inappropriate?
I find it hard to believe that Susan isolates her dogs all the time, which is what so many seem to take away from Ruff Love.
truly, doesn’t everyone want a dog who is eager, but obedient? I know I do
I don’t know SG, have only seen a couple videos of hers. But my R+ trainer loves her and has either personally worked with her or attended clinics of hers. I can’t recall which b.c my trainer trains w/ a few of the big names. And I have a tendency to jumble all of the little personal stories about her experiences together in a big heap in my memory banks… so obviously take what I say with a grain of salt
Point being is that she would say that SG lives with her dogs in her own house in a manner that the rest of us do not, or in the case of my trainer; lives an a way that my trainer chooses not to. My trainer a little casual in her home life with her dogs and happy that way. I don’t feel that my trainer thinks that SG is abusive in any fashion. I don’t think that she’d agree with Wendy, but she would say that SG’s dogs at home live a life different than her own dogs.
There are alot of great dog trainers out there, and SG may be one of them. But I’ve noticed that most of these dog trainers do not have little children in their home…humm… coincidence? I want to see dog trainers out there in R+ land that have a great working and home relationship with their dogs, a successful dog training teaching job and a pack of little wee kids at home… at the same time. And work a normal 9-5 job. Otherwise people like SG tend to promote a relationship level with their dogs that the rest of us just can not replicate.
Point being is that she would say that SG lives with her dogs in her own house in a manner that the rest of us do not, or in the case of my trainer; lives an a way that my trainer chooses not to.
I don’t know SG either, but I do know a few close students of SG, and they do not have a “normal” relationship with their dogs, nor do their dogs have any kind of “normal” lifestyle. Nor do they seem to really enjoy their dogs much, as dogs. The full program turns the dogs into tools, and turns the owner into a “user” of the dog as a tool to achieve a particular goal of the owner. Whether it’s good or healthy for the dog to be exploited and used in this fashion is not considered relevant by this group of people. Nor do they consider whether it’s good or healthy for people to use sentient beings in this way.
I wouldn’t call what they do “abusive” in any way, but it’s kind of horrific in an abstract way. If they did it to people I would call it abusive, but I’m not sure if dogs have the mental capacity to truly suffer from being treated this way? because they don’t really understand what is being done to them? that reads badly, I hope it’s understandable. I think what they do to dogs is actually more damaging to THEM than it is to the dogs. To deliberately manipulate and use a living, thinking being to such an extent must be damaging in some way to the person doing the brain-washing.
I enjoy dogs because they are dogs- I like to let them BE dogs, and try to experience their doggy world of scent and joy as best I can, and play with them without worrying about whether what silly game we are playing will mess up our Q-rate next weekend.
Since many of the best trainers don’t feel it’s necessary to put their dogs through a deliberate brain-washing program I would conclude it’s not actually a necessary step in order to produce well-behaved, winning dogs.
Following SOME of SG’s program, and paying a lot of attention to her training tips will improve anyone’s training. Can’t help but admire her success, and many of her ideas are brilliant.
I guess it’s the usual “take what you like and leave the rest” approach.
[QUOTE=NRB;6491243]
But I’ve noticed that most of these dog trainers do not have little children in their home…humm… coincidence? I want to see dog trainers out there in R+ land that have a great working and home relationship with their dogs, a successful dog training teaching job and a pack of little wee kids at home… at the same time. And work a normal 9-5 job. Otherwise people like SG tend to promote a relationship level with their dogs that the rest of us just can not replicate.[/QUOTE]
Take a look at Denise Fenzi. She’s got kids (not little anymore, but they were once) and although she doesn’t work away from home, in a typical sense, she has a very successful training and seminar buisness. She’s also extremelycompetitive in her chosen fields.
I’ve met SG several times, she and several of her dogs have been to my place. My trainer knows her very well, has spent quite a bit of time at SG’s place and has talked about how her dogs live… I’m not saying it’s horrible, just that they don’t get treated like regular dogs.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6491737]
Take a look at Denise Fenzi. She’s got kids (not little anymore, but they were once) and although she doesn’t work away from home, in a typical sense, she has a very successful training and seminar buisness. She’s also extremelycompetitive in her chosen fields.[/QUOTE]
Cool, I knew that there had to be someone out there!
