Symptoms of poor saddle fit: Rider

[mollymoon]

Hoping others with more knowledge of jumping saddle design and body mechanics can help me understand what symptoms emerge from different types of poor saddle fit for the rider. For example, what does it feel like when a twist is too narrow/wide, or the seat size is too large/small, or seat shape is too deep/flat, or stirrup bars are placed too far forward/back? And what do these different types of misfit do to a rider’s position?

My interest stems, of course, from trying to find a new saddle. I’ve come to accept that the fit of my current one is not right, but I’m not sure what exactly is making it so wrong for me. I’ve sat in a lot of different saddles —some of which I’ve hated instantly, and none of which have felt like an epiphany—and read a lot of different articles (e.g., Schleese, Trumbull mountain, saddle geek, COTH), but I feel like I’m still missing some key connections between potential sources of poor fit (like twist width or seat size) and the symptoms they commonly cause (like painfully bumping into the pommel or balancing too forward on the pubic bone or pinching with the knees).

So those of you who know something about fit issues, what have you learned?

(I know saddle fit is a complex issue, complicated further by the idiosyncrasies of a given rider and a given horse, and that diagnosing and fixing fit problems is best handled in person, on a horse, by a competent saddle fitter. I am trying to find answers to a simplified and broader question of what elements of a saddle design can be associated with which symptoms of poor rider position or rider discomfort, setting aside the specifics of the horse and saddle-to-horse fit. For the purpose of this question, just assume that the saddle fits the horse perfectly, that they go happily in it, and that the rider is not wildly mis-proportioned to the shape and size of the horse).

[Scribbler]

I sucked it up and rode in a lot of saddles that didn’t fit for the first 5 years I returned to riding.

Saddle fit for riders has several levels.

First, saddle could just be too small or too big. Knee over knee roll, butt over cantle. This is obvious.

Second, saddle could cause you pain from the configuration of the seat. This too is obvious.

Third, the saddle might force your leg into the wrong place or put you in a chair seat. Ask your trainer to watch you ride.

Generally the more built up a saddle the more precise it needs to fit and the more open, the less precise.

Last year I rode in a borrowed horse in a borrowed dressage saddle that was visibly too small for me but comfortable. However after a few rides I realized it was making my back hurt after a cantered because I didn’t have room to move my pelvis enough and I was taking the strain in my back.

Two years ago I bought a used jump saddle. I trialed it walk trot and liked it. However my first few times cantering after I had paid for it and had it reflocked I was thrown all over the place. I persevered and did a lot of two point and now I find it wonderful to canter in.

It can be hard to fully evaluate saddle fit if you still are working on your own position issues because those will follow you to the new saddle and the new saddle won’t fix them.

[mollymoon]

@Scribbler

It can be hard to fully evaluate saddle fit if you still are working on your own position issues because those will follow you to the new saddle and the new saddle won’t fix them.

Good point… I totally agree that just switching to a well-fitting saddle will not fix rider position issues. And I would not be surprised if fighting an ill-fitting saddle to get into a correct position creates a whole host of different muscle memory problems or weaknesses that might manifest in an entirely different position issue in a saddle that fits. But I would expect that sitting in a well-fitting saddle would make it easier or more natural feeling to find a correct position and allow the rider to learn to stay in it, instead of fighting to appear correct-ish in an ill-fitting saddle.

[Scribbler]

@mollymoon

Good point… I totally agree that just switching to a well-fitting saddle will not fix rider position issues. And I would not be surprised if fighting an ill-fitting saddle to get into a correct position creates a whole host of different muscle memory problems or weaknesses that might manifest in an entirely different position issue in a saddle that fits. But I would expect that sitting in a well-fitting saddle would make it easier or more natural feeling to find a correct position and allow the rider to learn to stay in it, instead of fighting to appear correct-ish in an ill-fitting saddle.

My trainer has lovely position in any saddle no matter how bad it fits. When I came back to riding I had position issues in every saddle!!

After a dozen years back riding I’m at the point where bad saddle fit can impact my position which is progress I guess!

On the borrowed horse last year, when I got a saddle that fit me, when it was just minimally asymmetrical on the horse, I tipped forward just a bit until we switched the shims. When I rode a dressage test in flexible stirrups my leg was less stable.

On my own horse however my ongoing issue is a bit of chair seat. It doesn’t really happen on other horses but it carries over on her through different saddles. She has big ribs and a wide but short back.

I feel like getting my good enough saddle fit is important but I’ve never had a total revelation from switching saddles. And with the current jump saddle I had to adapt to it.

[sheltona01]

Basically any position faults can be the saddle or it can be something else. These include but really not limited to leaning forward, leaning back, twisting, hunching/rounding shoulders, chair seat, legs too far behind. Toes/legs rotating out.

It also can include being behind or ahead of the motion, sitting down too quickly during a jump or falling forward or backs in your position while jumping.

for the rider it can include back, hip and knee pain. It can feel like being spread or collapsing in the hips.

[GraceLikeRain]

@mollymoon

Good point… I totally agree that just switching to a well-fitting saddle will not fix rider position issues. And I would not be surprised if fighting an ill-fitting saddle to get into a correct position creates a whole host of different muscle memory problems or weaknesses that might manifest in an entirely different position issue in a saddle that fits. But I would expect that sitting in a well-fitting saddle would make it easier or more natural feeling to find a correct position and allow the rider to learn to stay in it, instead of fighting to appear correct-ish in an ill-fitting saddle.

Totally! I was excited when I saw this thread as I just survived two hours of test riding 6 saddles in the sleet with the world’s most dedicated fitter.

For example, I confirmed that I like a saddle with a forward balance point with a flat seat and closed/upswept cantle. For me, Black Countrys ride like this for my structure. Someone else may have a very different set of adjectives to explain this exact saddle or how the saddle felt for them.

My right leg is the bane of my existence. There are layers of old injuries, weakness, etc. but at the end of the day, it is significantly less stable than my left. No saddle fixed my leg. However, in saddles with more of a rear balance point or a more open seat, I could feel some of that weakness brought to the surface and how it impacted my horse. Conversely, when I sat in the right saddle I felt “plugged in” but not held in. It was no deeper than some of the other saddles but instantly I felt a sweet spot and the tension drained from my right hip. My problem isn’t fixed but there was a significant difference in just one ride. My horse does not deserve to deal with my bad leg and I’m dedicated to addressing it. Ensuring that I have the right saddle will hopefully expedite both goals.

If you feel comfortable doing tracings, I’d send them to a local fitter and see if they have at least 3-4 saddles that come to mind as possible options. Even if one needs shims or other fixes, getting to sit in them will be really eye opening. Ride walk/trot/canter and notice both how your horse feels and how you feel. If you find a saddle you love but the fit for your horse isn’t right, you can then identify what saddles ride similar or if a different tree size in the same model could be a viable option.

[mollymoon]

@GraceLikeRain

For example, I confirmed that I like a saddle with a forward balance point with a flat seat and closed/upswept cantle. … in saddles with more of a rear balance point or a more open seat, I could feel some of that weakness brought to the surface and how it impacted my horse. Conversely, when I sat in the right saddle I felt “plugged in” but not held in. It was no deeper than some of the other saddles but instantly I felt a sweet spot and the tension drained from my right hip.

This is exactly the type of experience/knowledge that I’m looking for, thanks!

I want to hear more of these saddle feature and rider experience pairs. I know that different people will experience the same feature different ways, and that’s totally okay—I’m not really looking for consensus here, but rather a source of symptoms and associated features that can be mined for things to experiment with or investigate further when you’re having a position or pain problem and you don’t know what might be exacerbating it or what different thing might relieve it.

[flexion]

Twist too narrow: feels like you’re sitting on the sharp side of a board.
Twist too wide: feels like you’re sitting on the flat side of a board and you can feel the sharp sides.
Perfect twist: you don’t notice the twist, the saddle feels comfortable to sit in. The wrong twist is a special kind of torture.

Seat size too large: you slide around a bit at sitting trot or canter, when you have a walk break you scoot forward to get in the right balance.
Seat size too small: you post or two point over the pommel of the saddle, you lean forward since your backside hits the slope of the saddle in the back, you may develop back pain.
Perfect seat size: maintaining balance and straightness in your upper body is easy and natural.

Seat shape too deep: you struggle to post, you hit the pommel of the saddle (maybe even when in a half seat at the canter), you feel like it’s hard to get out of the saddle when jumping.
Seat shape too flat: you feel insecure, unable to sit through spooks or sticky moments, or think you will be unable to.

Stirrup bars are placed too far forward: your leg feels too far forward, you are in a chair seat.
Stirrup bars are placed too far back: your leg feels too far back, you can’t keep your heels down, you lean forward.

Perfect flap size: your knee doesn’t stick over the top of the flap or leave a large gap but follows the angle of the flap, it sits nicely against the knee roll or behind the knee block so that your kneecap is under the knee roll at the “pointy” part of the curve of the flap and you feel locked into place when you post. The flap goes about a third of the way down your calf and you can feel your horse’s sides when you squeeze (if it were too long, you might pull your leg too far back in order to get your leg on).

There is a BIG difference in how a saddle fits and feels when you are sitting on a horse vs. on a saddle block. Twist is easy to judge off the horse but everything else changes on the horse’s back. And changes horse to horse. But there really is an aha moment with saddles that fit correctly - everything just seems so much easier and you melt into the horse rather than sit above them (like how it feels to drop your stirrups).

[SugarCubes]

I can’t speak to what was off about my old saddle, but for years I thought I had a bad knee pinching problem and generally felt tipped forward until I got a new saddle. Both issues disappeared immediately. My old saddle was a Childeric, and the only thing I noticed when looking at pictures is the stirrup bars looked to be set a little too forward for me, but again, no idea if that’s what contributed. New saddle is an Antares and the balance is just so much more spot on for me.

[RedHorses]

@mollymoon

Good point… I totally agree that just switching to a well-fitting saddle will not fix rider position issues. And I would not be surprised if fighting an ill-fitting saddle to get into a correct position creates a whole host of different muscle memory problems or weaknesses that might manifest in an entirely different position issue in a saddle that fits.

Muscle memory is definitely a problem if the rider has managed to learn to keep their own position while fighting the saddle. Years ago I got a new to me dressage saddle because my horse had gotten too wide for the old one. The old one had an uphill balance for the rider as a result. This change had occurred gradually and my muscle memory had altered the same way.

When trying the new saddle I didn’t notice because I was paying very close attention to my position and my horse’s action. Once the novelty wore off and I started riding without that attention to position I discovered (with some embarrassment ) that I couldn’t post the trot! My muscle memory was compensating for the uphill saddle balance that was no longer there.

I did realize what was happening immediately and did long posting trots to retrain the muscle memory over the next week, but it was a good lesson.

[FatDinah]

@GraceLikeRain

Totally! I was excited when I saw this thread as I just survived two hours of test riding 6 saddles in the sleet with the world’s most dedicated fitter.

For example, I confirmed that I like a saddle with a forward balance point with a flat seat and closed/upswept cantle. For me, Black Countrys ride like this for my structure. Someone else may have a very different set of adjectives to explain this exact saddle or how the saddle felt for them.

My right leg is the bane of my existence. There are layers of old injuries, weakness, etc. but at the end of the day, it is significantly less stable than my left. No saddle fixed my leg. However, in saddles with more of a rear balance point or a more open seat, I could feel some of that weakness brought to the surface and how it impacted my horse. Conversely, when I sat in the right saddle I felt “plugged in” but not held in. It was no deeper than some of the other saddles but instantly I felt a sweet spot and the tension drained from my right hip. My problem isn’t fixed but there was a significant difference in just one ride. My horse does not deserve to deal with my bad leg and I’m dedicated to addressing it. Ensuring that I have the right saddle will hopefully expedite both goals.

If you feel comfortable doing tracings, I’d send them to a local fitter and see if they have at least 3-4 saddles that come to mind as possible options. Even if one needs shims or other fixes, getting to sit in them will be really eye opening. Ride walk/trot/canter and notice both how your horse feels and how you feel. If you find a saddle you love but the fit for your horse isn’t right, you can then identify what saddles ride similar or if a different tree size in the same model could be a viable option.

A little sidetrack, but I have started doing yoga. One of the most striking aspects is feeling how uneven I am side to side, legs anf back, shoulders. Yoga lets me really feel that and work to correct it. So, a good saddle is key but if you’re also looking to help your body, try yoga.

[FatDinah]

In general, what are some good brands that tend toward a deep seat and a narrow to medium twist. In the rice range of newer used at &1500 to $2000 (or great bargains too).

[Scribbler]

@FatDinah

In general, what are some good brands that tend toward a deep seat and a narrow to medium twist. In the rice range of newer used at &1500 to $2000 (or great bargains too).

Many brands carry different models with deeper and shallower seats.

Many excellent brands that sell new for $4000 to $5000 can turn up in good used condition for $2000.

[jetsmom]

@SugarCubes

I can’t speak to what was off about my old saddle, but for years I thought I had a bad knee pinching problem and generally felt tipped forward until I got a new saddle. Both issues disappeared immediately. My old saddle was a Childeric, and the only thing I noticed when looking at pictures is the stirrup bars looked to be set a little too forward for me, but again, no idea if that’s what contributed. New saddle is an Antares and the balance is just so much more spot on for me.

You could be describing my experience. Bought new HDR, Beval Natural, County Stabilizer and pinched with my knee, felt i was leaning forward, crotch got rubbed raw at times. Rode in an Antares and it was like my leg magically stayed in place, no more knee pinching, no throwing myself on neck over jumps, no more jumping ahead. It was the twist. I needed a wider twist which Antares comes with. I have flat thighs, and the narrow twist was making me pinch with my knees.

[SugarCubes]

@jetsmom

You could be describing my experience. Bought new HDR, Beval Natural, County Stabilizer and pinched with my knee, felt i was leaning forward, crotch got rubbed raw at times. Rode in an Antares and it was like my leg magically stayed in place, no more knee pinching, no throwing myself on neck over jumps, no more jumping ahead. It was the twist. I needed a wider twist which Antares comes with. I have flat thighs, and the narrow twist was making me pinch with my knees.

Yes, yes, yes! I forgot about the rubbing - that saddle wore holes in the crotches of more than one pair of breeches :no:! Interesting about the twist…makes sense! I also feel like my leg is so much more stable in my Antares!

[BigBlackDog]

I rode for several months in an ill fitting saddle and ugh it was awful. The flaps weren’t forward enough for me and the stirrup bars were set too far back. I endured sharp knee pain and thigh cramps when I dismounted. Started riding in a friend’s Bates and while the flaps/stirrup bars were more suited to me, the seat was far to large so I slid around and would often slide down on the pommel in it and developed a terrible perching habit. I finally acquired my on properly fitting saddle, a unicorn with a very small seat and a long forward flap! I’ve been happy, comfy, and secure ever since!

[mollymoon]

Loving all the info, thanks everyone!

Here’s a weird one, I think: I get cramps in the arch of my foot as I’m warming up, but it seems like I never get them in stirrups with wider foot beds. Has anyone else noticed something like this?

Like some others, I also think a REALLY narrow twist encourages me to pinch with my knees and perch on top of the saddle.

How do you know if a seat (not twist) is too narrow or wide?

[DiamondJubilee]

@SugarCubes

Yes, yes, yes! I forgot about the rubbing - that saddle wore holes in the crotches of more than one pair of breeches :no:! Interesting about the twist…makes sense! I also feel like my leg is so much more stable in my Antares!

Wow! I’m glad I’m not the only one…I was also perched forward and was riding off my crotch in my Bruno. I sold it and bought an Antares and its like night and day! I feel a lot more secure, I sit back more and no more rubbing. We must all be built the same way! I didn’t know the Antares had a wider twist though…I just knew it was comfortable for me and fit my ponies really well.

OP- I think you just need to really try lots and lots of saddles to see which you prefer. It took me a long time to find the right saddle to fit me and my ponies. It was trial and error really.

[kashmere]

@mollymoon

How do you know if a seat (not twist) is too narrow or wide?

Basically - it’s going to feel crappy and hard to get your ‘sweet spot’ in the seat.

To assess a little more usefully than that - at the halt, find your seatbones with your hand - if they are close to the seams of the seat, you’re verging on too narrow, if there is a TON of room between your seatbone and where the seat meets the skirt on either side, you might be too wide.

Symptoms of too narrow are instability, feeling perched, might get pain in the seatbones from sitting on the seams - or crotch pain if you end up pushing against the pommel. Too wide and you might feel like you cannot get your leg to drape, pain would more likely be hip/pelvic pain, you might find yourself pushed into a chairseat.

[SaddleUp158]

An invaluable tip I learned while saddle hunting from my fitter is not to get hung up on whether the saddle has a narrow twist or wide twist because each brand of saddle will have their own version of narrow or wide twist. I tried many saddles and while many were comfortable enough for me and appeared to fit my mare none of them felt right until The One. My mare was soft and and relaxed (huge accomplishment, lol!) from the first step forward in that saddle and it felt comfortable and right for me as well. Come to find out it had the widest twist that that brand has; I always thought I needed a narrow twist based on the saddles I had ridden in and tried in the past. Something about how this saddle fit BOTH of us was the right combination (or perhaps it is just having a picky mare!). I immediately felt plugged in on this saddle instead of perched up above my mare. That was one of the biggest differences between this saddle and the others that technically fit both of us but were just “ehh, okay”. My leg also automatically fell into the correct position, no manipulation was needed.

Find an independent fitter who can provide many different brands of saddles for you to try. Try all the saddles and then try them again.