Why are shortcuts **bad?
[QUOTE=merrygoround;7753116]
Dropping in from the Dressage forum. 
Having evented, hunted etc. warm bloods, TB, QH, grade horses, for some 60 years. I can say that each horse is an individual.
I can also say that transitions have nothing to do with hands, and mouths. Someone goofed in this horse’s education, and a tack nose band is an short cut response,to what should be a back to the basics re-education. This whether the horse is 4 or 24. And the rider 7 or 75.
Have to agree with “tinah”,and “willitbe”.
Flame suit on! :D[/QUOTE]
It is a 1000 lbs+ animal you can not MAKE it do anything, a few rides here and there that gets their attention is better than a lot of other things that could be done. If you do not have it tight it is not uncomfortable and does not hurt the horse. My horse would open he mouth without me touching him and brace against my hands and bit when he felt like with, yet when working on flat work he was completely soft and responsive, he just chose not be in the show ring. The 2 mins of a round with the tack on was not harming nor making short cuts. Some horses just blow off their riders, my horse was not in pain or uneducated he just liked to things the way he wanted.
My initial reaction to reading about the use of a tack/chain noseband was definitely along the lines, oh my gosh, never! Butttt, on further consideration, I realized there have been training items that I used to consider ‘taboo’ or only for ‘uneducated riders’ but have realized that they do have their uses in select applications.
Riding is not a black and white sport. I always considered draw reins a poor training aid, until I was taught how to use them correctly and the situations that warranted their selective use. Would I use them on every horse? No way. But on those who need it, yes, I would. Now, I would say that a tack and/or chain noseband would be my very last resort and I doubt I will ever have need for that particular item in my arsenal but if I had exhausted every other outlet and I felt that it was more detrimental to try to continue using methods that were not working and just frustrating myself and the horse, yes, I would likely consider the use of such a noseband.
As much as we all judge other riders for their choices in tack or training equipment, there comes a point when you have to take a step back and say, I don’t know it all and maybe there’s something to be learned here.
(Disclaimer: I am saying this all with the assumption that the OP is an educated rider and not someone who will slap a tack noseband on and say that’s that. There are definitely cases where training devices are being used horribly incorrectly and in abusive manners and those are most definitely cases that I am not referring to.)
The ones that aren’t tack nosebands and aren’t chain nosebands are usually called “studded” nosebands.
They are a good tool when used properly. I once saw on this board someone looking for a crank tack noseband.
That would be the incorrect use.
[QUOTE=fatappy;7753599]
Why are shortcuts heinous?[/QUOTE]
:lol: Quite a strong word.
If you read for context, I said it was a quick fix, instead of starting back at the basics which should have been instilled in the horse from the beginning, and that blaming a breed wasn’t meaningful.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;7753743]
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS482US482&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=heinous
:lol: Quite a strong word.
If you read for context, I said it was a quick fix, instead of starting back at the basics which should have been instilled in the horse from the beginning, and that blaming a breed wasn’t meaningful.[/QUOTE]
You’re right. Heinous was a poor word to use. But I am frustrated with the superior attitude that comes up on these threads (not just you, not just this thread, but this comes up often). So I really would like to know why using tools/ shortcuts is a bad thing. If I can correct a bad behavior with two touches to a noseband, why wouldn’t I? Sometimes a piece of tack responds quicker/ better than my amateur self does, why wouldn’t I take advantage of that? It really is a genuine question.
And again, I am sorry I used the word heinous. This, along with several other threads/ news articles I have seen today have shortened my fuse… And my farrier still hasn’t come… I need some whiskey.
“158” you described MY horse’s behavior well. It is not that he doesn’t KNOW compliance. It is not that he has not done soft, seat based, smooth flatwork for a year…it is that he choses when he will and when he will not. He can go forward in a lovely frame and put in a lovely round…with a slight bulge to the right on the right turns…he jumps beautifully…he pulls up to the required walk before leaving the ring at his own pace…sometimes a looooong exit circle while he decides whether he will stop or not. So , inspite of those things, winning is not a problem. But when I accepted that I had to address these increasingly willful behaviors…when I knew that “faking it” was a losing battle…I went back to basics and said, “Let’s discuss this right drift.” His reaction to correction of this was stiffness and belligerence. repeated soft work made me realize he was painting me in to a corner. His side of the conversation went something like this…I CAN do it …if I want to…but not WHEN YOU want…maybe just when I want…or maybe on Wednesdays and Saturdays if the Sun isn’t in my eyes> it was a long conversation, and finally , a boring one. So faking it, (my problem) petting treating forgiving etc. became more and more boring. I resorted to the tack noseband to get his attention. I don’t even own one. But with the “get it in six, slowly” gang, it sure changed his attitude. ANd delightfully, with that change, I got my lovely fluid horse back to train!! So NOW we can work on strengthening work to correct the reasons for the right drift…and I can ask for him to halt without a lengthly discussion…what a relief.
For those of you who are so shocked… have you NEVER put a chain over the nose a horse you were leading/lunging? Because the chain on a tack noseband is probably a significant degree LESS harsh than that. Certainly it exerts less pressure than say, a chain over the gums or chain twitch. It’s not a answer to every problem and it can absolutely be misused-- but there are instances when it’s a useful tool in the right hands.
Beval sells both the studded and chain nose bands. They will also add studs or a chain to an existing cavesson as well.
I have been fortunate to never had to go to one. It is a piece that I do not have in my bag of tricks at home, but situationally- I’m not opposed to it in educated hands (gasp- same as drawn reins).
Don’t worry Claudius- to spread the horror around- last year I tied my super fancy pony TO MY TRAILER at Devon for lead line because I was solo and had to get him ready by myself and due to a surgery, couldn’t bend around in the trailer. Gasp. I even took a picture and put it on FB to horrify my friends. hee hee.
Point being, careful saying “Never” and save your holy indignation. You’d be suprised “What I would never do” until you find yourself in that situation. Suddenly you may be saying “Huh, maybe you can teach a EXPERIENCED dog new tricks”
Is tying to a trailer, supervised, verboten?! I never knew?! I use twine or yarn as a breakaway but I do this all the time.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7753128]
I have the kindof noseband with the bumps, which is 1/2 way between a sharp tack and a chain. I call it a tack noseband, as a generic name. It was bought for me (he bought it and I paid for it. 
) when I trained with Ronnie Mutch waaay back in the 80’s. I have used it from time to time when it was the best aid to communicate with a horse.
Claudius chooses not to use her real name and I am sure that 80% of you would not know who she is anyway, because she is of, ummmmm, my generation. But she has found and started some of the best show hunters in the US and is one of those people who “have forgotten more than we will ever know”.
If she used a tack noseband on a horse, you can be sure that she had tried every other alternative and, as she said, the horse just resisted more and more until her rides were not learning sessions, but arguments and backtalk from the horse.
As for the poster who , snarkily, told her to find a trainer ---- she was one of the “go to” people (now she only starts her own) for starting young horses. IMO, if that poster has more knowledge and experience than Claudius, only then is she in a postition to be rude.[/QUOTE]
I also used a tack noseband with one horse – coincidentally, also when riding with Ronnie Mutch!. For this horse, it made a huge difference.
Please keep in mind that tack nosebands come in many configurations – some use just bumps, others are more severe.
As stated earlier, it’s a self-correcting aid, which I also prefer to always depending on the rider to release.
BTW – it’s been many decades since then and I haven’t had another horse that I thought would benefit from one.
If a “shortcut” was the best way to get to the destination it would be called “the way”.
Applies to driving directions and horse training.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7754274]
Is tying to a trailer, supervised, verboten?! I never knew?! I use twine or yarn as a breakaway but I do this all the time.[/QUOTE]
To some. =) You are in my old (and favorite,will be again) zone. I’d love to show with you, because mine will stand tied, as well. =)
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7754288]
To some. =) You are in my old (and favorite,will be again) zone. I’d love to show with you, because mine will stand tied, as well. =)[/QUOTE]
I grew up doing APHA and had an eventing/pony club trainee for a while. Every once in a while I stumble upon some unspoken hunter rule I am breaking
Yesterday, after bathing my horse, I rubbed the towel on his nose. He did not flinch at all, it was not puffy and not a hair has been disturbed. He has chosen not to abuse himself. He is a testimony to the correct use of equipment. He has learned "yes mam " painlessly, for both of us!!!
[QUOTE=whbar158;7752821]
I use to use one, but only for shows[/QUOTE]
I thought they were illegal show equipment.
I would not show in one for fear the judge could penalize unconventional equipment in the hunters-- if the judge found out.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7754335]
I thought they were illegal show equipment.[/QUOTE]
I would guess they are considered unconventional but you can’t tell unless you are looking and go feel. This was also close to 10 years ago and I have not been showing recently and not kept up with a lot of rule changes.
[QUOTE=fatappy;7753599]
Why are shortcuts **bad?[/QUOTE]
Ahhhh, reasonable question.
Shortcuts, as in gimmick them up so you produce a desired effect in a hurry without taking the time to teach the horse what you want? Suck. All they do is confuse and sometimes abuse the horse.
Thats why the stock answer to posters of unknown ability with horses at unknown levels of training trying to fix problems is back up and look for holes in the training instead of reaching for a shortcut. Or call the vet because the horse is not responding properly because it hurts.
HOWEVER and only IF the training is up to snuff, the rider has independent use of hand, seat and leg (meaning not a novice) and pain has been ruled out? Some of these things can help a horse refine existing training, help horses that are older but still Green or changing careers understand how to use their body or block a sly veteran from evading the aids.
In these cases it’s not a shortcut, it’s a tool that allows the horse to correct itself. Overuse defeats the effect and they just ignore it.
Also need to keep in mind that competition horses that work hard and exert themselves with some speed- like Jumpers and higher level Hunters- get excited, sometimes distracted. Ignoring the rider even momentarily on a big course can lead to serious mistakes in front of unforgiving fences. Sometimes they need a reminder. Again, that’s not a shortcut, it’s reinforcing existing training.
