Lurker from dressage land. I’m currently leasing an Iberian breed stallion who apparently was doing this mouth thing prior to when I started leasing him. That trainer chose to correct the situation by cranking the noseband as tight as he could, so it seemed that the poor horse’s eyes were popping out. Seems to me that was NO BETTER and maybe worse than what this OP is asking and using it periodically. Yes I keep a chain attached to stallion’s leadrope. He’s 95% a gentleman but when love is in the air, the chain is pretty darn useful.
PNWjumper - ha ! I know whose clinic you were at ! He came East and suggested the same thing at my ICP Certification Clinic. No one knew whether or not to be horrified or tuck it away for further use ! And personally, I wouldn’t buy a horse I couldn’t tie to a trailer reliably.
The tying thing? It’s the norm in breed shows and many locals but for some reason, not practiced that often in H/J land. Probably because you can’t park the trailer anywhere near the show ring and most shows are multi day requiring stalls.
Mine tied even if it never was needed. Had good ground manners too, or else. Something we aren’t that good with for some reason over in Hunterland.
Where I used to live, H/J shows were mostly one-day affairs and the reason horses were seldom tied to their trailers was that their riders seldom got off their backs. They would be in the arena for 3 back-to-back classes in their division, riding around between classes drinking water (but seldom watering their horses), and when their division was over they would either tie horse to trailer if they had come in a group from a barn, or haul out and go home.
As to the statement that some horses go in a plain snaffle, others in a twisted wire one, again, that is not the horse’s fault, it is the rider’s. If you think your horse needs a severe bit, you need to go back to basics. If he is too strong over fences for a plain snaffle, maybe bit up, but certainly not to twisted wire!
Don’t forget that horses are animals, not RVs. They need schooling, not shortcuts. We get into horsemanship because we love horses, not because they are a means to an end. Refocus.
We had some on horses in our barn in the 80s. While not illegal, we didn’t publicize the fact that we were using them. They were the nub kind and possibly homemade.
How do you really feel about H/J riders?
While you do see people using their horses as couches, I only remember it from a few places. We were never allowed to sit for hours on end on our horses. They always got taken care of first. and yes, we did tie them to trailers…still do, as a matter of fact. I spend as little time on my horse’s back as needed.
As to the statement that some horses go in a plain snaffle, others in a twisted wire one, again, that is not the horse’s fault, it is the rider’s. If you think your horse needs a severe bit, you need to go back to basics. If he is too strong over fences for a plain snaffle, maybe bit up, but certainly not to twisted wire!
Whenever anyone gets all NEVER!!! with regards to horses, I think they must be inexperience or have limited experience with only a few different horses. Horses should only go in as much bit as necessary, but sometimes that means more than you’d like…while keeping on eye on moving them to less and less when you’re able.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7754723]
Anyone else remember the tack noseband thread from about 2001? It was a classic.[/QUOTE]
Haha, I thought this was the same thread at first, dredged up somehow from the archives!
Anyone who puts an entire breed of horse into a box does not garner much respect in my book.
EVERY horse is unique in regards to what they kind of support they need from their handler. A good horse person will recognize this fact regardless of breed. Not all WBs are “dumb”, as the OP basically stated. Not all TBs are intellectually quick.
I know zero about the piece of tack in question, for the record. Never used one, never needed to. I don’t know the OP, or their riding abilities. I do know I have met a few “pros” I wouldn’t accept a car ride from, much less let them touch my horse. Getting a winning horse does not always mean the trainer is a good one. Just a few thinking points, nothing against the OP.
As an aside, there are dressage nosebands (even cranks!) I have seen with studs/tacks. I would love for someone to explain to me how that is supposed to work in a positive way for the horse, given how I know cranks nosebands are supposed to be used. :eek:
[QUOTE=Abbie.S;7757018]
Anyone who puts an entire breed of horse into a box does not garner much respect in my book.[/QUOTE]
Someone who doesn’t realize that WBs are not breeds does not garner much respect from me. 
[QUOTE=RugBug;7757074]
Someone who doesn’t realize that WBs are not breeds does not garner much respect from me. ;)[/QUOTE]
Category? Classification? Grouping? Take your pick. You are correct, “Warmblood” isn’t a breed, persay. My silly wording mistake. Either way, it’s still sticking a large group of horses (multiple breeds, even! 
) and putting them all in a small box.
[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7754659]
I always get the feeling in these threads that the people who are screaming, “I WOULD NEVER…!!!” have just never come across a horse that would benefit from a tool like a tack noseband.
And that’s what it is, by the way, a TOOL. Not a shortcut and not a torture device (funny line to draw, by the way, out of all of the things we use on horses). There are a million places you can insert training tools into a program to get to a desired result more quickly. The caveat is that the rider/trainer has to know how to use the tool correctly to get that desired effect without sacrificing something along the way. And yes, that’s a big leap to make with many posters of unknown origin asking for advice on this board, but it doesn’t change the fact that the story line that “every horse on the planet should be rideable 100% of the time in a plain snaffle at every stage of their training” is just weird. It took my upper level jumper many years in all sorts of different tack to be rideable on the flat in a plain snaffle. And as trained as he is now, we still go to a gag in the jumper ring, and I can promise that I will never be able to ride him in a grand prix in a snaffle (and boy am I not short in company there!).
I had a mare that was a severe head flipper. Punched the kid I had riding her in the face a number of times even with a running martingale. Went to a standing and she broke a couple of them. Had a BNT put her back in a standing at a clinic and then tucked a rock under the noseband. She hit that once and suddenly was a lovely, rideable little thing. Bought a tack noseband and she lived in that for the next year. By the end of that year she was able to go without. I considered that noseband to be the turning point in her education that allowed her to go on and be a nice horse for the kid that bought her. Loved that it was self correcting and not anything the rider could impact in a negative manner.
Claudius - I believe I ordered mine from from a website that focused on another discipline and I can’t remember which to save my life. But this one looks really nice, and particularly because it’s convertible (I think)…it looks like you can remove and replace the strip with the studs on it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Abbie.S;7757018]Anyone who puts an entire breed of horse into a box does not garner much respect in my book.
EVERY horse is unique in regards to what they kind of support they need from their handler. A good horse person will recognize this fact regardless of breed. Not all WBs are “dumb”, as the OP basically stated. Not all TBs are intellectually quick.
I know zero about the piece of tack in question, for the record. Never used one, never needed to. I don’t know the OP, or their riding abilities. I do know I have met a few “pros” I wouldn’t accept a car ride from, much less let them touch my horse. Getting a winning horse does not always mean the trainer is a good one. Just a few thinking points, nothing against the OP.
As an aside, there are dressage nosebands (even cranks!) I have seen with studs/tacks. I would love for someone to explain to me how that is supposed to work in a positive way for the horse, given how I know cranks nosebands are supposed to be used. :eek:[/QUOTE]
I think the essence of this subject might best be understood from a general perspective of the principles of training horses, rather then focusing on any particular types of training devices.
Horse training amounts to a procedure of methodologies carried out with the intentions of influencing a horse’s world experience in a manner that is most likely to result in the horse accepting a human managed condition of existence, as predictable, secure, livable, understandable, and preferably desirable.
The domesticable nature of horses will vary between breeds and individuals.
But the psychological essence of how a horse processes certain categories of experience into behavior, has a very distinctive profile of commonalities that can be collectively associated as characteristics that contribute to the trainability of the domestic horse in general.
Those of us who have trained horses successfully, should have a good understand what resistance is.
Resistance is a horses instinctive nature coming into a state of conflict with, one or more of the training methods being implemented by a trainer.
Overcoming resistance in the horse, and instilling desirable behavior effectively, with insightfulness of the horses long term welfare, is a common goal of classical horse training.
I believe it’s helpful to bring the subject of threads like these down to a singular question; that of overcoming the resistance element of training.
We can then begin to answer questions in a rudimentary fashion.
How do we define training in it’s simplest form.
If we stand by a pasture fence and observe a group of horses turned out together, we may observe how horses interact with each other, how they behave to form order and hierarchy in the herd, and discover that horses have a very complex social system that uses different types of feedback between members of the herd, which essentially amounts to horses training other horses to achieve a group social order.
Horses use many type of behaviors to achieve this herd social order, which may include (but not limited to):
Friendship
Leadership
Agression
Threat
Respect
Routine
Kindness
Tolerance
Fairness
Force
Consistency
Bonding
Reliance
As trainers of horses we may emulate their natural methodology of developing order for the purpose of overcoming resitance. The variable element that a trainer faces is choosing the proper methods to correct each given form of how resistance may manifest.
We can achieve much with consistency, kindness, fairness, and tactfully applied force, and for some horses that may be all that one ever needs.
But similarly to the dam who may be growing annoyed by the behavior of her rambunctious foal, she may make a firm statement to her foal that such behavior is unexceptable, and the foal generally understands the lesson very rapidly.
Horses are very good at making definite “points” amonst each other, and resuming to peacfull order once the “correction” was made.
With the above in mind, can we not then reconsider the true purpose and usefulness of certain training tools when used by trainers who are knowledgable of what type of correction would seem most appropriate for an individual horses cause for resistance?
Different training tools can be used in different ways for different reasons.
I think that anyone who categorizes training tools into strict categories of purpose may be missing the bigger picture.
So I’ll ask, why can’t a selective application of a tack nose band be thought of in the same light of understanding as a horse who drives home a “point” to a pasture mate, that certain disrespectful behavior will not be tolerated?
Once the point is made, it often does not need to be made again, as respect repaid with consistent fairness and kindness, is a strong motivator in of itself.
My opinion.
I love these kinds of threads- good with my morning coffee. I think that the words “never” and “always” with regard to horses are sort of useless in most situations.
I’ve been flatting my young jumper in draw reins the way Bert de Nemethy used them- with the ends clipped to the girth buckles, instead of between the legs. After a couple of weeks of this I am at the point now where they are more or less inactive, and I’ll be sticking them back on their hook pretty soon. This is a short-term training tool that has completely zeroed out a problem I was having (big horse with big stallion-y neck resisting my attempts to get his front end talking to his much more cooperative, supple back end), and has begun a very productive conversation.
I am 100% certain that I would be roundly condemned by many in the peanut gallery for this, but my horse actually did something akin to piaffe the other day when I asked, and is beginning to be strong enough and educated enough for true self-carriage. So, nuts to the always-never people! There are many ways to successfully train horses and experienced riders know that sometimes a quick fix is completely appropriate to help achieve a longterm solution.
Oh, and I also tie both my horses to trailers- or whatever- all the time. It is a very useful thing to be able to do! At the last A show I went to I tied my young one to the outside of his stall while I mucked it, shocking the folks sitting in the other corner. He took a nap, I cleaned his stall, undid the slip knot, and stuck him back in. No problem.
Love, love, love this! Training with too much gentleness can be detrimental just as training with unnecessary roughness can be detrimental. Relationships between horses are a mixture of both, dependent on the severity of the infraction and how many times that specific ‘question’ has been asked. In some cases, it is ultimately “nicer” to answer the repeated question with a very firm NO! and be done, versus a constant battle of reprimands and boundary testing.
Abbie.S…This was told to me by the local GO TO guy for difficult horses. He gets the stallions from North East and Mid Atlantic breeding farms that the resident trainers are finding difficult. He is not a novice. He is well respected by the big names in the Dressage world in those parts. So when he told me
" at tb gets it in one, a wb gets it in 6" it was very helpful information. It taught me to be more patient with these other that TBs I was breeding and raising. I found his advice so helpful with the yearlings and two year olds…it isn’t that they don’t get it, it is just that they process it more slowly. And as any experienced horseman would know without explanation, such a generalization is not followed by the word ALWAYS. But it is a reminder, helpful to anyone transitioning from TBs to other, heavier breeds…something to work with. OFCOURSE, some TBs are slower than others, some WBS are faster than others…I am surprised that this needed to be clarified.
