Talk to me about bringing the toe/hoof back

[batty.eq]

@JB This is exactly what I’m worried about. I truly feel that my current HCP CAN do a good job. I could see them doing some of the mapping with the rasp, but I’m worried things will slip again. I’m generally out for every appointment, but I also don’t want to have to feel like I need to remind them continually.

This dude is barefoot, but my other boy is shod all around (at least for now). I am in an area with a fair amount of HCPs, but it’s finding the right one that’s seeming potentially difficult. I would like to be able to at least do some maintenance rasping between visits, but my current provider didn’t seem super keen to guide me

@outerbanks77 Thanks for the input! I agree actually, I think we could have done a bit more with the toe, or at least the breakover, but I think my HCP is a bit on the overly cautious side in terms of taking material away. I will say, I think in-person vs photo, the difference is more pronounced. I haven’t had a chance to get better photos, but it is on my list).

I will check out those videos as well, thank you!

[RedFox5]

A lot of farriers are overly cautious with taking toes off. Learned the hard way when I had someone out because my guy took his shoe off when he got stuck in deep mud and despite my mom telling the person to make sure to take his toe back as he goes best with a very quick break over the person didn’t listen and my farrier had to come out and redo it not even a week later because the lack of break over was putting even more stress on a torn tendon (from the mud when he pulled his shoe off). The amount of toe she took off looks extreme compared to the toe the other farrier left but it was very necessary for his comfort

[Pehsness]

I haven’t read everything, but was a professional trimmer once upon a time, and time and again have proven to myself that the only/fastest way to a healthy hoof is…

Diet. THE diet will vary by horse but starting with forage based and a vit min supp fed in adequate amounts is key.

Bring the toe back weekly if you’re dealing with under run heels. Vertical cuts, either with hoof in hand or on a stand, the rasp is perpendicular to the toe, from 10 - 2.

Balance. Medial-lateral balance is so important. Learning how to sight the hoof relative to the ground. Ensuring balance at all times.

These things will take you 90% of the way. The final 10% is important and can be learned, but starting with the simplest basics is half the battle, and too often overlooked.

Edited to say, Pete Rameys “rule” was rasp until the flakes stick. I still follow that, with nuance.

[RedHorses]

My experience is that farriers will forget what a horse needs once the issue isn’t visible every time they come to trim. Reminding them that “this is the horse that gets sore for a few days after a trim” when you bring the horse out can be enough to trigger their memory to do the slightly less aggressive trim on this horse. Or whatever issue/trim adjustment that horse has/needs that you have already discussed in detail and figured out the adjustments needed with the farrier previously.

It’s not accusatory, or “telling them what to do”, but just recognizing that some things need to be maintained even if the problem appears to be gone, and you don’t expect the farrier to remember every foot without some context to remind them.

[batty.eq]

I’m confident the diet is where it needs to be (well, as confident as I can be in a boarding situation where hay testing isn’t practical). I worked with a nutritionist based on hay analysis averages typical to the area + bloodwork. He has 24/7 hay access, and then gets alfalfa cubes, beet pulp, a comprehensive vit/min supplement, salt, msm, contribute oil, vitamin e (added when not on pasture + lower dose when on pasture), and we recently added copper/zinc based on bloodwork (so that will take some time to show up in new hoof growth).

Reading/working my way through some of the other resources everyone has shared too - I appreciate all the perspectives.

[JB]

@batty.eq

we recently added copper/zinc based on bloodwork

you can’t tell nutritional input of these based on blood work, unfortunately. That said, adding 100-300mg Cu and 300-900mg Zn won’t hurt, that doesn’t put any diet like yours remotely close to unhealthy levels, and it may help

[Pehsness]

I’m not a huge proponent of hay testing, despite it’s popularity online. It’s not practical for the average person IMO. I never test mine (because it’s not practical).

If diet is good just focus on short intervals and extreme attention to balance. Those things alone are 90% of it. A balanced hoof supports the internal structures and allows for optimal blood flow. Thrush is minimized, abscesses limited to external trauma, and horn grows thick and healthy.

Every step a horse takes leads to a healthier foot when it’s balanced.

[JB]

Hay testing really is ideal, and a lot more doable than many think, even as it’s not possible/feasible for a lot. It’s not expensive, even if you do it 2-3 times a year, but especially if it’s just once

fortunately, for the average horse and average hay, as long as you’re also feeding the proper amount of a ration balancer, forage balancer, or regular feed, AND you’re not pouring money into this and that supplement and spray and goop to keep feet from cracking, coat shiny, etc, then the odds are pretty good the diet is pretty good

The cost of 1 hay analysis is less than, or many equal to, a month’s supply of many supplements

[tabula_rashah]

I agree for most people it’s pretty useless. I’d have to get it done monthly and I don’t even know if all the bales I get from a supplier at one time are from the same place. Unless you buy once or twice a year and KNOW that it’s all coming from the same field and, in my area anyway, that’s not happening very often.

[Pehsness]

If I was growing my own hay or had a supplier guaranteed to give me the same hay from the same field month after month, I’d do it. Otherwise it just doesn’t make sense to me.

[JB]

Hay sampling isn’t about starting with a uniform batch of hay. It’s random samples of a certain % of the total bales to get an average. So yes, this means if you have 6 months at a time, an analysis is useful, even if those bales came from 3 different suppliers, as long as you sample random bales from each batch

No horse is eating the same nutritional content every day, unless in a clinical setting. None. They’re eating grasses at different stages of growth, eating different forages (clover, dock, crabgrass, fescue, OG, whatever’s growing and edible in your field) based on what tastes good at that point in the week or month. They’re eating grass from different parts of a field, where soil nutrients differ so grass nutrients differ, and that’s exactly the same as if all your hay for the year came from the same field. The bales at the edge of the woods aren’t the same nutritional profile as the ones 10 acres away in the middle of the field. The hay that was cut at 10am has less sugar than the hay cut 6 hours later in the same field.

It’s all about averages, it’s never about uniformity

But if you’re getting bales from different suppliers, or different fields from the same supplier, on a monthly basis then no, it doesn’t make sense

[batty.eq]

Great discussion - thanks all.

@JB That’s super interesting re. the bloodwork. I’ll further my reading. My vet said he was mildly low on copper on his results, but whether that/how that relates to nutrition may be something I’m not clear on. That said, I think adding it (currently using Mad Barn’s copper/zinc) is a worthy thing for me to try.

I have considered a hay analysis, despite the fact that I don’t know the supplier(s), etc., but again, we did get average data already for my area, so I feel like we’re at least in the ballpark.

He’s a great weight, good muscling, good coat/mane/tail, etc. And while the thrush is a problem with his feet, the wall quality seems pretty good - he rarely gets chips etc. Sound barefoot on all surfaces etc. I really am confident I’ve got his nutrition in a good spot.

Hoping to get my farrier back out around 2.5 weeks post-trim for a touch-up and then he’ll be done again about 2.5 weeks after that so we can get on top of this.

[NaturallyHappy]

All I have to say w respect to hay testing is that is is life saving for me caring for IR horses. It’s easy to do and, in my opinion, cheap insurance.

[rulex]

@batty.eq

but my current provider didn’t seem super keen to guide me

Between that and your current provider getting you in the situation you are in now because of being too conservative, I’d be looking for a new HCP if there are plenty in your area.

If your horse can benefit from more frequent touch ups in between trims, then a good provider should be thrilled that you are willing to do what’s best for your horse and their feet.

Being too conservative can be just as detrimental as too aggressive, it’s just less obvious and the distortions it introduces creep in over time.

You may also find that with correct trimming the central sulcus thrush resolves on its own as the heels are allowed to open up and function properly.

[SharonA1]

@rulex

a good provider should be thrilled that you are willing to do what’s best for your horse and their feet.

How I wish there were more of these good providers! But quite a few of the HCPs I have encountered tended toward being rugged individualists who don’t want to hear it, or, they will hear it, but then throw it out the window as they drive off. (But I have met wonderful ones, too.)

[batty.eq]

Sorry for the lack of reply, but I hear what you’re saying. I won’t hesitate to make a change if I find things sliding, but I did feel it was fair to at least give my current provider the opportunity to correct things. I’m at the point where if I see things reverting, or not progressing, I will have that conversation.

I may broach the subjective of them showing me how to do maintenance rasping again as well and see how they respond if I sort of “push” the issue.