Talk to me about bringing the toe/hoof back

[batty.eq]

Long term lurker, new poster.

I’m trying to further educate myself on the hoof so I can further advocate for my horse. I’ll provide some background below, but my main question is what is the “right way” (or is there one) to start to correct long toes? From the bottom? By top dressing (the bottom 1/3, NOT higher), both? Essentially, I’d really like to ensure the corrections we are making keep us moving in the right direction.

Horse is barefoot, and I plan to keep him that way. I don’t want to share too many specifics as I don’t want to be potentially identifiable by the situation.

The “vague” background:
-Full set of PPE front hoof x-rays at purchase a few years ago - looked great

• He is barefoot today, I do use boots on his fronts for things like hacking, but he doesn’t need them for soundness - he is sound barefoot, I like the extra protection/shock absorption of boots
  -He has tended toward “butt crack”/thrushy frogs and his feet are a bit small conformationally (QH-type)
  -Nutrition is (now) balanced (done with a nutritionist). We recently added copper/zinc as bloodwork showed he was mildly low on copper
  -This winter, toes seemed to be long and starting to “flare” out, he seemed to be dragging them, and the heel was starting to look underrun.
  -We have had a WET few months, so the environment has not been ideal, but it’s starting to dry. I started actively/aggressively treating frogs for thrush with my own homemade “artimud” and white lightning. They have been slowly but steadily improving and opening up. My cotton balls no longer stay in.
  -Updated x-rays recently done (full set on front, lateral views of hinds). These were done when he was “due” for a trim. They showed extra toe, and neutral or negative palmar/plantar angles on all 4.

-I’ve been down a RABBIT HOLE watching videos, reading, etc. He was trimmed and my farrier was good about discussing the plan to correct with me. They opted to top dress (the bottom 1/3rd) to address the toe flare, and brought heels more underneath (they still need to come back more). The improvement was significant looking from pre-trim and much closer to what his feet looked like when I bought him.

I am trying to ensure I’ve got nutrition, frog health, movement, and trim accounted for, as I can’t control the weather

I guess I’m just looking for some perspectives on the “right way” to correct long toe and bring the hoof back in balance, and to make sure I know what to look for and keep on top of with my farrier. There are also 100 different opinions and “methods” and it’s hard to know what is “true” so to speak. I really am just interested in the COTH experiences and anecdotes…

Thanks for reading!

[luvmyhackney]

The fastest way is to keep very short trim cycles. Literally every couple weeks touch up the toes.

I’ve had good luck using a glue on flip flop shoe vs barefoot to get the horse to land heel first on thrushy heels and encourage movement. These: https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot-flip-flop.asp?srsltid=AfmBOooIDeY1SYhFD5tqcUl91TT7FKklOH7OkGU6Vh4mdU5DAOjkenzF

Folks will post that know way more than I do, but those two things work well for myself and my trimmer.

[Snowdenfarm]

Watch the Webinars with Wendy episodes with Dr. Robert Bowker. The short answer from him is from the top. But so much good info in those webinars. Well worth the watch.

Edited to correct “from the bottom” to “from the top”.

[Amberley]

The fastest way is to correctly trim the frog, bars and heels to allow the horse to comfortably weight them and shift their weight backwards on the foot stimulating growth there and not at the toe.

[4horses]

Pictures of the hooves in question?

[batty.eq]

Thanks everyone!

Bear with me while I figure out the forum functionality, but to address comments so far:

@luvmyhackney - Thanks - we’re definitely going to do a shorter trim cycle moving forward. I’ll keep those easy boots in mind - I have Scoot Boots that I use and rotate between riding him in them and turning him out in them.

@Snowdenfarm - I haven’t heard of those, but I will try and find them. Assuming on YouTube? My vet did say he has some extra depth we can work with at the toe, but my farrier seemed hesitant to take too much from there and instead chose to work more from the top, which is sort of what inspired my question. Perhaps I’ll get some more insight from those webinars!

@Amberley - I’m hoping we are back on track with a more correct trim (although, it begs the question of why they weren’t being trimmed correctly before I spoke up/got x-rays). It’s only been a few days since the first “corrective” trim, so I do hope I’ll see improvements over time.

@4horses - let me see if I can figure that out in a new post…

[batty.eq]

Pre & post trim side-by-sides (not taken the same day)

My sole photos aren’t cooperating at the minute.

[JB]

The “right way” is about removing excess material that doesn’t belong, which I know is pretty vague lol But it points to - how you do something depends on what/where the excess is.

Long toes might be fixed in 1 trim if they’re long because of being overdue for a trim, and there’s a lot of vertical growth beyond the sole. By default, putting that back in its place will also remove horizontal growth, since all hoof material grows forward as it grows down.

Sometimes, the length really is just forward because of hoof conformation or something, so you remove it horizontally until you can’t rasp more without getting into live/sensitive tissue

But, long toes pretty much always also come with long heels, the question is whether those heels are standing tall, or crushing. Way too many farriers don’t understand crushed heels - they see low heels, think the horse needs MORE heel (ie needs vertical height, and they’re not wrong on that aspect) but then don’t trim those heels, so they never start standing up, and they keep chasing long toes. So, working with long toes also means working with heels.

Granted, conformation and genetic hoof quality sometimes means you’re always just managing a foot that runs forward, but this is done with more frequent trims (easier when barefoot) or when the foot must be shod, some creative shoe package to keep the foot more in check without having to trim every 4 weeks which can’t always be done when you have nailed-on shoes.

www.barefoothorse.com is a site I love to point newbies to with the caveat they ignore any anti-shoe sentiment It’s got good pictures of the structures, and good before/afters, as well as pretty good higher level instruction on what to trim and why.

If you want more in depth, the ELPO mapping is pretty fail-proof, and gives a really good understanding of ratios and distances and explaining why/how they are the way they are
https://www.lamenessprevention.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=6600&pk_association_webpage=13307

All that study material is free.

The 2nd bullet point there on mapping/trimming/shoeing is this link which is how to map the foot to know what excess material to trim. It’s great for anyone to learn, as you can mark up your horse’s foot as many times as you want to get feedback on its accuracy, without ever taking a rasp or knife to the foot. Then, if you so chose, you could start trimming. Still, it helps to have someone show you in person but knowing that’s not always possible, there are some groups where you can get virtual hand-holding

ProtocolStudyGuidePack.pdf

If you’d like to post pics for evaluation here, here’s a good site showing the angles to shoot
Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

[rememberthenight]

The source of long toes often is underrun heels. Many farriers are scared to address heels. That allows the hoof capsule forward and not supporting the inner structures properly. That looks to be what is allowing the foot to run forward in your case too. The ELPO method is fantastic.

[Snowdenfarm]

OMG, I just edited my comment. Your farrier is absolutely right. And Dr. Bowker says from the top, not bottom. My brain must have been completely out to lunch when I responded. And yes, on YouTube.

[JB]

IME, one of the biggest mistakes made when HCPs (hoof care professionals, farriers and trimmers alike) allow feet to run forward, is they aren’t removing excess sole to see where the real landmarks are.

So, trimming the toe to 3/4" in front of the apex of the frog, for example, without understanding the tip of that run forward frog is not the actual apex, which is where frog joins sole. Likewise, trimming to sole at the heels, without paring away dead sole to find live sole which then dictates where heels belong allows heels to stay underrun. Not finding live sole at the toe quarters doesn’t tell you how far to lower the wall.

[batty.eq]

Thank you for the post, JB! I’ve been browsing the barefoot horse link you shared already, and I’ve watched a few videos about ELPO, but I’ll check out that other site as well!

I hear what you’re saying about removing the excess. I think admittedly, I let this slip a bit too long - being kind of suspicious things were getting out of whack, but not being proactive enough to speak up. I do feel like this horse used to/wants to grow a more upright hoof vs long toes - I wish I had more photos from earlier on to compare. I think the farrier has been too cautious about removing material, particularly at the toe and sort of got us into this long toe/heel pulled forward place.

I’d like to provide a chance for them to fix it, but am admittedly worried about regressing.

I will see if I can get better photos based on that guide over the weekend so I can track progress.

Expanding on your later post, JB, I do think his frogs (on the front mainly) have run forward a bit, which may have been/will be a factor we need to think about so we can find that true apex.

[batty.eq]

Thanks for clarifying! I’ll hopefully have time to watch some of this soon!

[lizloveshorses]

@JB

they aren’t removing excess sole to see where the real landmarks are.

David Landreville is really good about this. I just joined his Hoof Builders video library and have learned SO much already.

[JB]

@batty.eq

I do think his frogs (on the front mainly) have run forward a bit, which may have been/will be a factor we need to think about so we can find that true apex.

Everything runs forward as it grows - wall, bars, sole, and frog. All that needs to be done is pare the tip of the frog back. Barring excessive growth and time, the tip that’s grown forward isn’t attached to anything, so you can pull it up to see what’s what.

[Buster]

UGH, I feel like I could have written this thread! I’ll be curious to see where you end up. My HCP put us out at 5 weeks this last time around, already doesn’t trim off enough, and now I’m cringing looking at their feet. Why is it SO hard to find someone good?!?!

[batty.eq]

Thanks for all the comments, everyone! I’m at least feeling like I’ve been on the right track with my research. Some of the suggested websites/names have been ones I’ve been browsing.

That makes complete sense, JB.

Sorry to hear, Buster! I do wish I had paid a bit closer attention sooner with my guy, but I’m hoping a shorter cycle and better frog health will get us into a good place. I am in an area with an abundance of HCPs, but would like to give my current provider a chance before I make any decisions. I do worry about a bit why we got to this place though and it wasn’t brought up until I brought it up.

[Mango20]

I’m here with you, too. My longtime farrier retired a year or so ago and recommended his replacement. I like her, but I think she’s letting my pony’s toes get too long and heels too low, especially in his hind feet. I need to figure out how to tactfully address this with her next time she’s here.

[JB]

For those trying to get their HCP to fix things - it’s often a losing battle Either they don’t know what they don’t know so CAN’T fix things, or they do know but get lazy and while they might improve or even fix things in the short term, they’ll just get lazy again. Unfortunately, I also realize so many live in a HCP “desert” and there simply isn’t anyone else better.

If your horse is barefoot, you CAN learn to do this, if you have reasonably physical abilities. Yes, it’s hard when you start, but to be very clear, if you do both fronts on day, and both hinds another, and don’t let things go more than 2-3 weeks, there’s really very little work each time, and that makes it so much easier. Getting a good hoof stand with the ability to rest the foot right side up, and upside down, so you’re not bending and squatting and holding a foot, is a lifesaver for most.

The ELPO mapping above makes things so simple in knowing what to remove, if you study the material and practice mapping

Having someone show you in person how to use a rasp and knife is a big help, but not a requirement for most.

This is all why I got started - when we moved to this farm, my old HCP wouldn’t come this far, so I had to learn, and found a great mentor in Cindy Sullivan, thankfully. But after that, I got LOTS of online help as well.

[outerbanks77]

The feet do look better after the trim, but could probably be taken back more. As mentioned, often the frog apex isn’t clearly identified. Also, the breakover isn’t taken back enough, so the toe is perpetually pulled forward. Keeping heel height and preventing contraction is one of the keys, and a constant battle, IME.

For contracted heels, I like Daisy’s hoof slippering approach, which enables the heels to relax and expand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLSbcC23CU She has a ton of good videos, including, I think, some on getting toes back as well as hoof mapping. She says on almost all horses they land at about a 2.75" toe length when she gets the hoof balanced the way she wants. Not that she is trying to get to that number, it just turns out that way. I’m not Daisy, but my very large mare ends up at about 3.25" toe length on a fresh trim.