Talk to me: Bots and Panacure power packs

[Sansena]

Found a bunch of bot eggs on the new boy. I do not have a bot knife but I do have a grooming stone. Will get to work on that tomorrow. Also, think a disposable 2 blade razor would work? I’ve never seen so many bot eggs on a critter… it would explain a lot. I read some folks use vinegar. Have any of you tried that?

So I’m considering that Panacure 5 day power pack. Explain to me how that works, exactly. Timing of doses, what to look for in the manure, any dangers or precautions at all?

I think the Panacure would be a lot more gentle vs. Quest. Though I think the Quest would be more effective. Thoughts on that, too? Remember, I just met this horse.

I see no evidence of larvae in the manure – doubt I would. And the old owners just drags their t/o area about once a month or so. The manure isn’t stored separately or carted off. I’ll bring a sample over to the county vet today if he’s around…

Apparently bots are a bigger problem here where it’s warmer longer. There’s definitely a trade off for tank tops in December and no back breaking shoveling.

Thanks guys.

[Marla_100]

I’m in an area of Bot infestation and many neighboring farms NEVER worm their horses.

I just spray numerous times w/ Endure and the bot eggs fall off. Also my vinegar/permectrin II home made fly spray works also.

Equimax is my go to for covering bot worms. Much gentler than the others and is effective.

[Sansena]

I don’t know how I missed that Equimax is effective on Bots. Thanks for that.

Would love your recipe for your fly sprays to rid horse of bot eggs. Thanks Marla 100

[JB]

Only ivermectin and moxidectin kill bots, no matter how much of another chemical you use.

“gentle” doesn’t really apply to this. Something either kills the parasite, or it doesn’t.

But if you want to get into “gentle”, then moxidectin has a more “gentle” impact on the horse than a Power Pack does when it comes to encysted strongyles. A PP kills in place, which means the larva decompose and cause little ulcers, which may or may not affect the horse depending on him, and how many ulcers. Moxidectin paralyzes so the larva let go and are expelled.

[Sansena]

@JB

Only ivermectin and moxidectin kill bots, no matter how much of another chemical you use.

“gentle” doesn’t really apply to this. Something either kills the parasite, or it doesn’t.

But if you want to get into “gentle”, then moxidectin has a more “gentle” impact on the horse than a Power Pack does when it comes to encysted strongyles. A PP kills in place, which means the larva decompose and cause little ulcers, which may or may not affect the horse depending on him, and how many ulcers. Moxidectin paralyzes so the larva let go and are expelled.

Thanks JB.

Is there a need to repeat the worming in a compromised horse? If so, based upon what evidence? I think this old fella has a few issues going on. He’s in good flesh but might be a bit wormy. The way I understand it, bots won’t appear in fecal float tests, only in manure after they’ve been expelled. Correct?

Of the available dewormers out there, which would you prefer -as part of a ‘routine’ deworming program? Up north we’d do a fecal floatation test twice, maybe 3x a year depending upon herd/ pasture upkeep/ poop removal. Then Equimax after the first hard frost and Quest in the spring. More/ different depending upon what’s found in the FEC. Mine never needed more b/c he always tested negative.

Just moved to TX and I’m trying to adapt so this horse gets the best care. I don’t think a twice yearly worming will cut it.

[Simkie]

Panacur (no e) is not a boticide.

Ivermectin and moxidectin are.

The AAEP has an excellent guideline for deworming.

https://aaep.org/guidelines/parasite-control-guidelines

[JB]

@Sansena

Is there a need to repeat the worming in a compromised horse? If so, based upon what evidence? I think this old fella has a few issues going on. He’s in good flesh but might be a bit wormy.

There may be a need to do more frequent FECs to determine how well a horse is managing his parasite load in his environment, but that doesn’t mean he will need more frequent deworming. He may, for a while, then won’t, but only FECs will tell you what’s what.

The way I understand it, bots won’t appear in fecal float tests, only in manure after they’ve been expelled. Correct?

Correct. But there’s no need to target them more than twice a year, due to their life cycle.

Of the available dewormers out there, which would you prefer -as part of a ‘routine’ deworming program? Up north we’d do a fecal floatation test twice, maybe 3x a year depending upon herd/ pasture upkeep/ poop removal. Then Equimax after the first hard frost and Quest in the spring. More/ different depending upon what’s found in the FEC. Mine never needed more b/c he always tested negative.

Spring Quest Plus and Fall Equimax is all most horses need in most situations. If tapeworms are not a big issue (dry lotting, desert areas) then one of those can be replaced with the non-praziuantel version (Quest, plain ivermectin, respectively).

Your “up north” protocol is valid as a starting point anywhere. Additional dewormings are only done if a horse is showing moderate to high FECs. Make sure to do that FEC before the Spring/Fall deworming - if they are clean, I wouldn’t bother doing another FEC until late Summer/early Fall, which gives you time to do an additional deworming if needed, or know you can wait for the Equimax timing.

Just moved to TX and I’m trying to adapt so this horse gets the best care. I don’t think a twice yearly worming will cut it.

The framework applies no matter where you live. The framework guides you toward how many dewormings that horse needs in that environment.

Up North, your bigger infection risk times were Summers, but in TX the bigger risk times are Winters. Heat, especially dry heat, is really good at killing strongyle eggs in the pasture. Cold is not, but cold (below 45*) means eggs don’t hatch into the infective larval stage, so no infection. Eating strongyle eggs means eggs die, not hatch.

[Sansena]

As always JB, a wealth of information. Thank you so much for the educated response.

[Arlomine]

It is worth mentioning that quest, zimectrin gold, and probably equimax (though I have not had experience with it) can cause swelling/blistering/chemicals burns on the mouth of the horse, and I have seen this firsthand three times.
if you Google it, there is lots of anecdotal upset over this.

[Simkie]

@Arlomine

It is worth mentioning that quest, zimectrin gold, and probably equimax (though I have not had experience with it) can cause swelling/blistering/chemicals burns on the mouth of the horse, and I have seen this firsthand three times.
if you Google it, there is lots of anecdotal upset over this.

I’ve only heard this related to zimecterin gold, as a response to a carrier in that particular dewormer. It’s well known and included as a possible adverse reaction in the product literature, and why you rarely see it recommended here. There’s just no need to risk using it with Equimax on the market.

Can you link anything that implicates quest and equimax in the same sort of reaction? Would be interested to see.

[JB]

@Arlomine

It is worth mentioning that quest, zimectrin gold, and probably equimax (though I have not had experience with it) can cause swelling/blistering/chemicals burns on the mouth of the horse, and I have seen this firsthand three times.
if you Google it, there is lots of anecdotal upset over this.

Zimecterin Gold, and the Canadian equivalent, Eqvalan Gold, are the only ones to cause these contact burns.

It is a carrier ingredient issue with ZG, not the active ingredients.

[Janet]

@Sansena

The way I understand it, bots won’t appear in fecal float tests, only in manure after they’ve been expelled. Correct?

Huh?
A “fecal float” IS “in manure”.

[Sansena]

the larvae. Not visible to the naked eye. Need a microscope.

Of course you’ll see them after the mature larvae sheds after deworming

[J-Lu]

I use ivermectin/praziquantel and moxidectin/praziquantel without incident. Praziquantel is very, very safe.

I get rid of bot eggs with the single blade of a pair of scissors and try to prevent it with good flyspray on the inner legs. I know bot flies don’t land, but maybe they’re deterred by spray. A single blade of a pair of scissors really helps.

[J-Lu]

@Sansena

Thanks JB.

Is there a need to repeat the worming in a compromised horse? If so, based upon what evidence? I think this old fella has a few issues going on. He’s in good flesh but might be a bit wormy. The way I understand it, bots won’t appear in fecal float tests, only in manure after they’ve been expelled. Correct?

Of the available dewormers out there, which would you prefer -as part of a ‘routine’ deworming program? Up north we’d do a fecal floatation test twice, maybe 3x a year depending upon herd/ pasture upkeep/ poop removal. Then Equimax after the first hard frost and Quest in the spring. More/ different depending upon what’s found in the FEC. Mine never needed more b/c he always tested negative.

Just moved to TX and I’m trying to adapt so this horse gets the best care. I don’t think a twice yearly worming will cut it.

A Fecal egg count, using multiple samples, will definitely show bot eggs. All expelled manure will contain various amounts of offending parasite eggs.

Ivermectin and moxidectin are the best roundworm dewormers out there. I always combine with praziquantel because that is so safe and hits tapeworms. Your program is a common program. If your horse has a high fecal egg count, your vet can help you bring the count down by tailoring the program to the species present. My mare was “patient zero” despite a regular worming practice…it happens. My gelding peaked at the same time, and responded much more quickly to the short-term worming treatment we adopted based on the parasites present.

[JB]

@Janet

Huh?
A “fecal float” IS “in manure”.

Not in this context. Yes, you do a FEC using manure, but you’re “watering down” the manure and condensing the results so you can concentrate any eggs.

You’re not looking AT manure.

Bots will not show up on a fecal - bot larva don’t lay eggs, and eggs are laid by adult botflies on the outside of the horse. You CAN see the larva in the manure - they aren’t small. Bean-sized.

@Sansena

the larvae. Not visible to the naked eye. Need a microscope.

Of course you’ll see them after the mature larvae sheds after deworming

Bot larva are the size of beans - 100% visible to the naked eye. Y

@J-Lu

A Fecal egg count, using multiple samples, will definitely show bot eggs.

No it won’t. Bots don’t lay eggs in the horse to be expelled with manure, and therefore are not visible in a fecal. Bot larva - the only thing IN the horse - don’t lay eggs. Adult bot flies lay eggs ON the horse - those little yellow sticky things on legs.

All expelled manure will contain various amounts of offending parasite eggs.

Not bot eggs. And only vary rarely tapeworm eggs. And not all manure will contain strongyle eggs, even if the horse has adult egg-shedding strongyles.