TB Bloodlines for Eventing?

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8337645]
Let me put it this way: Hippomundo has only 4 A.P Indy sons who have produced for FEI level sport, and no daughters. Sadler’s Wells, who is the European equivalent of A.P. Indy, has 39 direct get who have produced for FEI level sport, and there are only two mares among them.

If I were looking, I’d personally much rather have a Sadler’s Wells descendant.[/QUOTE]

I am not disagreeing… but it’s worth noting that AP Indy’s sire line is still limited predominately to North America, while Sadler’s Wells’ get have made it to every continent on the planet.

Sadler’s Wells also had nearly a decade’s head start in the breeding shed.

But I agree, AP Indy has not made anywhere near the same impact at this time.

[vineyridge]

Slew’s total on Hippomundo is 19 get. That’s a huge increase in the past five or ten years, and the vast majority of the sport descendants are in the US in eventing. Slew O’Gold is still the Slew gold standard for sport. Slew is older than Sadler’s Wells by a horse generation. If turf horses in general make better sport horses than dirt horses, the Slews at least are almost exclusively dirt, and, quite frankly, not much wanted by European racing. Not sure, but think the same is true of A.P. Indy, even if he did win the Belmont.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Most direct AP Indy stayed race horses and as racing stock. I would not expect many FEI level horses from him directly. The influence is showing up now from offspring of certain of his sons.

[goodpony]

I have an AP indy grand son through Indy out of a Rhythm daughter going Prelim right now–My husband hopes to take him Intermediate. this horse has a phenomenal temperament and no apparent soundness issues to date.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=cdd6e8041

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=goodpony;8337877]
I have an AP indy grand son through Indy out of a Rhythm daughter going Prelim right now–My husband hopes to take him Intermediate. this horse has a phenomenal temperament and no apparent soundness issues to date.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=cdd6e8041[/QUOTE]

Very nice horse! What a lovely type for an eventer, and I see the A.P. Indy influence in him. And super cute, to boot! Beautiful xc round, he will be one to watch as he moves up.

What is his full pedigree?

[vineyridge]

As I said, A.P. Indy has four sons with FEI sport horse descendants; Sadler’s Wells has 37 sons and two daughters. The way Hippomundo works is they give the pedigree, then one clicks on offspring, then one looks up the offspring’s offspring, until you get to a horse with sport horse performance. None of either the Sadler’s Wells get or the Indy get went directly into sport.

And if you don’t think Sadler’s Wells stock was cherished by the racing people with the same ardor that A.P. Indy is cherished in the US, you’re dreaming.

[Texarkana]

Sadlers Wells are cherished… They are cherished world-wide, particularly in countries that are also coincidentally into eventing. Sadlers Wells has a greater influence on the global TB population than both AP Indy and Slew combined. So to me, it just makes sense that his name would trickle into the pedigrees of international competition horses more frequently.

You’d have a hard time finding a AP Indy descendant in Europe or Australia even if you were looking for one. Yet you could throw a rock and hit a Sadlers Wells relative, especially in Europe. And there’s no shortage of the SW line in the U.S., either.

[EventerAJ]

To my view, Sadlers Wells was basically the Storm Cat of British/Irish breeding. As Texarkana said, his influence is EVERYWHERE, with multiple sons and grandsons heavily used. His horses were very successful and very profitable in the sales ring; with so many of them, of course they would cross over to national hunt breeding and into their sport pool.

In the US, perhaps the most common line of SW is through El Prado, and from him, the recent success of Kittens Joy. There are others-- Sligo Bay, Powerscourt, etc-- but El Prado was most popular. Perfect Soul is another, but I have not been blown away by him or his get, as much as I do like his pedigree.

The Kittens and Perfect Souls may be turfy, and the A.P. Indys traditionally dirt, but I still like the conformational type of the A.P. Indy sireline better.

The best Sadlers Wells lines stayed in Europe, though, and are not common in the U.S.

The funny thing? Sadlers Wells was American bred. For all those who turn their nose up at US TBs, and gush over a horse with (GBR) or (IRE) after its name…well, those pedigrees are full of American horses, too, especially Northern Dancer…the genetics are not always drastically different.

[goodpony]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;8337917]
Very nice horse! What a lovely type for an eventer, and I see the A.P. Indy influence in him. And super cute, to boot! Beautiful xc round, he will be one to watch as he moves up.

What is his full pedigree?[/QUOTE]

This is him: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rhythm+royale
He never raced, he was given to me as a 4 yo unhandled stallion. He learned to lead the day he came to my house.

He is somewhat related to California Chrome–both through the sire line and also Rhythm is a full brother to CCs damsire Not For Love.

He is a ridiculously fun horse–has never stopped at a jump with the exception of pilot error. Very uncomplicated horse and has been brought on entirely by an amateur.

[Pam_Fisher_standing]

check out this link from an article eventing nation had posted. It lists many great eventing thoroughbred sires. http://eventingnation.com/home/a-critical-shortage-of-blood-in-eventing/*

[CanterandCandor]

[QUOTE=goodpony;8338024]
This is him: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rhythm+royale
He never raced, he was given to me as a 4 yo unhandled stallion. He learned to lead the day he came to my house.

He is somewhat related to California Chrome–both through the sire line and also Rhythm is a full brother to CCs damsire Not For Love.

He is a ridiculously fun horse–has never stopped at a jump with the exception of pilot error. Very uncomplicated horse and has been brought on entirely by an amateur.[/QUOTE]

I can only hope this guy would turn out as lovely as he is! I’m hoping for prelim eventually (he’s coming 4 so long, long ways off).

A couple pics for those interested are here and here. He’s a cute guy, needs some feeding and muscling up for sure.

It’s interesting to hear all your opinions, if you have more keep them coming! I’m really intrigued by pedigrees. I’ve heard mixed opinions of AP Indy before this but I’m always happy to learn more. Thank you all for your input thus far

[vineyridge]

The reason the rest of the world is inundated with Sadler’s Wells horses is that they wanted him. They did not want Slew or A.P. Indy. They wanted Northern Dancer get, another American sire, and imported them by the boatload. They don’t seem to have minded Native Dancer lines. They imported and are using Mr. P lines. They would be buying Slew/A.P. Indy’s if they wanted that blood.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=goodpony;8337877]
I have an AP indy grand son through Indy out of a Rhythm daughter going Prelim right now–My husband hopes to take him Intermediate. this horse has a phenomenal temperament and no apparent soundness issues to date.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=cdd6e8041[/QUOTE]

He is just lovely! The Numbered Account family is one of my all time favorite female families, so I’ve always been a sucker for Rhythm!

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8338062]
The reason the rest of the world is inundated with Sadler’s Wells horses is that they wanted him. They did not want Slew or A.P. Indy. They wanted Northern Dancer get, another American sire, and imported them by the boatload. They don’t seem to have minded Native Dancer lines. They imported and are using Mr. P lines. They would be buying Slew/A.P. Indy’s if they wanted that blood.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And they are slooowly starting to do so. Bernardini has been heating up in Australia. Rags to Riches went to Ireland. There are a handful of others, but not many.

You said it yourself earlier-- the Seattle Slew/AP Indy line are dirt horses. Euros and Aussies have no use for either of them in their race breeding. But I don’t feel their lack of exportation overseas bears any reflection on their offspring as eventers. I believe Slew/AP Indy show up less than other lines in FEI horse pedigrees because their population is confined to one continent, as opposed to other lines with a greater global influence (such as Sadlers Wells, only because he was mentioned). And the number of thoroughbreds being imported/exported for sport horse purposes is microscopic when compared to the number that shuttle for the racing industry.

[vineyridge]

Rags to Riches has been a bust so far as a broodmare. Even when bred to Galileo. Her oldest Galileo foal was exported to Serbia.

The only two places in the world that use TBs in numbers in eventing are North America and Australia/New Zealand. The TBs that excel internationally (top finishes) in short format are not the US bred ones. I attribute that to dirt racing and breeding for dirt racing. Turf bred TBs just seems to perform better in eventing. Which is why I’m not convinced about Slew/AP Indy as good lines for high performance eventing. If we use them, we’re shooting ourselves in the foot.

[LucyGoose]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;8337022]
IMO, the big key with A.P. Indy is Weekend Surprise. Slew plus Weekend Surprise (by Secretariat out of fantastic Buckpasser mare Lassie Dear) is what works.

Weekend Surprise is also the dam of Summer Squall, Eavesdropper, Tiger Ridge, and Honor Grades… all of which I like more than their typical sires’ get.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, not to high jack this thread, but any input on this pedigree?
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=GENERATE&reference_number=8860570&registry=T&horse_name=&dam_name=&foaling_year=&NICKING_STATS_INDICATOR=Y&sire_reference_number=0&dam_reference_number=0&color=&sex=&hypo_foaling_year=&breeder=