[QUOTE=Elles;7576676]
Lovely jump in that picture, who is the dam of that horse please?[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much Elles. His dam was Macassa, by Same Direction.
Dearly loved.
Here is his pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/my+romance2
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7577034]
A trainer friend of mine bought a 3 yr OTTB TB - a really nice, well built bay gelding. Never raced - no tattoo. Terrific movement, terrific jump. She threw away his papers and sold him as a " green broke WB" a few months later for $15,000 - and the new owners thought they got a steal of a deal 
. To get a nice “WB” for that reasonable a price.
He’s been in the ring for a few years now and doing very well against the “real” WB’s and the last I heard, he changed hands for $40,000. Everyone knows him as a “WB” and Im sure he;s held up as an example of why “TB’s” aren’t competitive in the ring anymore in top company, against “WB’s” :rolleyes:
If only they knew … :lol:
But my friend knew if she said he was a TB, a) no one would even bother coming to look at him and b) she’d be lucky to get $5000.00 for him
Sad really …[/QUOTE]
A) If he’s actually an OTTB, all you would have to do is lift his lip to know he’s not a warmblood.
B) I know of a few OTTB 3 and 4 years who have sold for that much or more in the hunter ring. If the horse has the temperment, size, jump and movement, most people don’t care what the breeding is.
prior to the last couple decades with the popularity of warmbloods…the TB was the original American sporthorse. most more suited to jumping than dressage. Its just that not all of them are suited to it. The sprinters tend to be “not the right type”.The right TB jumps just fine. Wild By Design at his RPSI inspection at 3 years old
http://s82.photobucket.com/user/camohn03/media/BoomerJump.jpg.html?sort=3&o=374
Going back awhile you saw Tb’s in the big ring doing very well. However, very very few are purpose bred for jumping, they are bred for racing. So even if the genes pop up once in a while, they are not consistent because very few are “gathering” those horses into breeding programs.
To be fair, most WB’s will not end up in the big ring even if they are purpose bred and that is their only vocation. Tb’s have another job and this is a secondary thing for them. Even the ones that can, may not have been genetically set to pass it on. More horses and breeders of jumping Tb’s (like Fred) are needed to be able to have a large enough population to be consistent.
Do some of the Tb’s carry the right genes? Oh hell yea. Holsteiners are line bred to the ones that proved that. They didn’t need to keep adding Tb but that doesn’t mean that there are none out there.
And there was a post about the European Tb not being the right version? They run the long races at older ages and do steeplechase.
And the Europeans were the ones that produced the “stallion” you look for in the pedigree. Many of those only made it to the Wb world because the were not fast enough…
I would say the NA version is the weaker link in comparison.
Are “they” a jump killer? Many of them will be, just like a dressage bred horse (but they are race bred).
To say TB’s kill the jump is just about as significant a statement as to say cars break down. Sporthorse breeding today wouldn’t be where it is had it not been for the great jumping TB’s used for decades to introduce stamina, nerve, speed and power as well as reaction into the previously somewhat heavy horses of the post WW Europe.
Now although the numbers are clearly higher in the US I must say I tend to look for the English and Irish TB more than the American bred ones simply because TB breeding in the US is greatly hmm well let’s say not on the right track as far as my veterinary and breeding concerns go. It’s considered a rather effed up industry over here with lots of medication issues, little to no respect for the horse and I have to say I’m not overly excited with what the American TB industry produces on the whole. You see a lot of broke down flat racers, poor handling and lots of iced legs and drugged up horses going to any random racetrack. It is not an industry I would chose to support.
While I don’t say that Europe is all clean and the US racing is all dirty I do think England traditionally has the better jumpers as they have been at it for so long and NH and Hurdling is deeply ingrained into breeders heads over here.
There’s not much that can beat a well bred Irish horse over fences and when using a TB I like to improve not just the typiness or ability to galopp but also a lot of other things.
The damline I’m taking care of goes back to a full TB who was born in 1863. My foundation mare was by Perser xx (a full brother to Pik As xx) and ranked tops at his time in producing both dressage horses and jumpers which is a trait I still look for in a TB. They have to be able to improve both for me as otherwise if the one single talent you’re looking for is not working out then what? Eat it up? I don’t think so
The other thing I’m looking for in a TB is a very low inbreeding-factor which is difficult to come by in the TB’s as everything tends to be related a few generations back and there are a couple of not to nice health issues in today’s ‘modern’ US bred TB’s.
Not to say there are none in European TB’s and I do realise there are a great many TB’s that have been exported from the US and used everywhere in the world.
Just to say TB’s kill the jump is way off base.
Big_grey_Hunter …
A) If he’s actually an OTTB, all you would have to do is lift his lip to know he’s not a warmblood.
An UNtattoed TB’s upper lip will look EXACTLY the same as a WB’s upper lip, I can assure you …
I stated in my post that the horse in question was an UNraced TB, so no tattoo was done on him 
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7577618]
Big_grey_Hunter …
An UNtattoed TB’s upper lip will look EXACTLY the same as a WB’s upper lip, I can assure you …
I stated in my post that the horse in question was an UNraced TB, so no tattoo was done on him :)[/QUOTE]
oops, sorry! I saw OTTB and missed the unraced part.
^^^ NP. That’s the only way she could have pulled it off
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7576019]
I think it depends on how you define “jump” and what you’re breeding for. TBs certainly dominate the pedigrees of top level eventers, but there is a big difference between the jump required for an Advanced event horse and that for an international jumper: basically the difference between a 1.3-1.35 m and 1.5-1.6 m horse. If you are speaking about the goal of breeding a 1.6 m horse, a healthy dose of TB blood is valued but full TBs are few and far between in modern show jumping at the highest level.[/QUOTE]
Gem Twist anyone…he was 100% TB and to this day, I’ve not seen many a horse with his scope and power. BUT I did know of many full TBs that did/do have more than enough scope and power for the highest levels of modern show jumping…just not as many riders out there with the finesse to ride them.
As a breeder, I breed more WBs because that is what people pay more money for…it actually has very little to do with what I think is the better athlete.
So in Europe where there is more purpose breeding for Jumping…and more marketing of WBs…you see more of them.
For current horses… Alydar consistently produces a good jump ( through Raise A Native) . The Ribot lines can jump.
http://thisishorseracing.com/news/images/Foyle.jpg
This is Foyle one of the horses who ran in the Maryland Hunt Cup this year. From the take off spot the largest jumps are well over 5’, probably close to 6’. Foyle’s a thoroughbred by Yarrow Brae who stands in WV. Who wouldn’t want this jump in any horse’s breeding?
This year in the MD hunt cup there were two horses by Yarrow Brae, the rest were represented by: AP Indy, AP Jet, Point Given, Zaffaran, Lion Hearted, Eastern Echo, Flatter, Ops Smile, Outofthebox, Double Honor, Bon Point, Johannesburg and Presenting. Most, not all, raced on the flat before beginning this second career. Most steeplechase trainers don’t breed for steeplechasing because it’s much more economical and sensible to draw from the excellent pool of athletes coming from flat tracks. It’s really hard to go to the Maryland Hunt Cup and then hear someone say thoroughbreds kill the jump.
I doubt if anyone needs to breed for horses intended for any type of jumping career in the US. The thoroughbred industry has inundated us with horses who can jump. As with all breeds, there’s a spectrum, but thoroughbreds with the right conformation can jump. They can stop on a dime, turn easily and jump high and wide.
I will never believe that this kind of athleticism is not useful in the show ring and I know that it’s pervasive among thoroughbreds.
Much of what I hear about thoroughbreds from the warmblood sector does not jive with what I know about riding and owning them. I’ll never forget the day my then three year old galloped around the pasture, made an abrupt turn, took two steps and jumped the 52" fence. Harness that ability and put it in a show ring!
I think there are a bunch of myths floating around created by people who don’t have access to thoroughbreds or aren’t aware of what they’re doing in other venues.
I have no doubt they are out there but if they were that common, you could make a small fortune in finding and re-selling them. Doing a course at 1.5m is even uncommon for purpose bred warmbloods. But I agree that at the lower levels there is some overlooked talent out there.
IMO, the original premise is complete bullshit. This country was at the top of the international jumping scene for decades, mounted mainly on TBs, most OTTBs. And if we had not started drinking the kool-aid about European breds, and stayed on course with developing and riding TBs, and saving and strengthening the old jumping bloodlines, we would still be successfully riding and winning with them. Oh, and insisting on students learning to ride them. We dropped that ball, and now we are where we are.
[QUOTE=lauriep;7578729]
IMO, the original premise is complete bullshit. This country was at the top of the international jumping scene for decades, mounted mainly on TBs, most OTTBs. And if we had not started drinking the kool-aid about European breds, and stayed on course with developing and riding TBs, and saving and strengthening the old jumping bloodlines, we would still be successfully riding and winning with them. Oh, and insisting on students learning to ride them. We dropped that ball, and now we are where we are.[/QUOTE]
The US has won 9 Olympic individual medals since 1900 and 8 in team.
Since they started riding Wb’s they got 5 of those team medals since 1988. The other 3 took 88 years.
Of the individual medals, 4 out of the 9 medals were on Wb’s and were won in the last 20 years. The first 5 took 84 years.
I think you can say that the Wb has improved NA show jumping results and that while there are some spectacular TB that have been in the ring, I would have a hard time believing that the American Tb was on top for decades. There was a reason that top riders started using the Wb. They were more consistent in their results, they are bred for it in large numbers. Tb in NA never were.
People forget that the horse that STILL holds the equine high jump record (8"1 1/2"?) was the Chilean TB Huaso (I think his original name was Friendly, I may be wrong.) I emphasized the STILL because it was in the 1930’s I think, sorry my memory is not the greatest right now.
ANYWAY being a TB did not “kill” Huaso’s jumping ability, far from it. You can find videos on the web of this amazing feat. It is impressive, the one I saw had another Chilean TB try the jump and bring it down and fall himself. Huaso is sent to the fence the first time and refuses, his rider take him back, turns him around and the second time Huaso jumps it clean and manages to stay on his feet at landing.
Huaso cleared the fence, but BOTH TB’s were willing to try to jump it (over 8 feet, WAY above their heads, made of logs and solid.) TB’s kill the jump? I don’t think so.
I don’t think anyone is disputing that there are exceptional TBs out there. This discussion, however (as I see it, anyway), is about BREEDING top show jumpers. It is on the BREEDING forum, not the Hunter/Jumper forum. The question is whether the TB negatively affects the jump when one is BREEDING for a 1.6 m show jumper and wanting to add the positive attributes of the TB such as stamina, quick reflexes and a quick-thinking brain.
Perhaps riders in NA are biased against TBs and are therefore less likely to buy any individual TB as a prospect than they are a warmblood, and this is unfortunate as many exceptional prospects may be overlooked due to this bias. However, when it comes to BREEDING top show jumpers, the fact remains that one is more likely to produce top level horses by breeding warmbloods that have generations of performance bred into them, with a large mare base and pool of stallions from which to choose appropriate breeding stock (complementing this blood, of course, with high quality TB stallions for an infusion of positive TB traits). TBs with this type of sport-bred pedigree do exist, but they are hard to find and thus there are fewer examples of successful breeding programs using the TB model.
[QUOTE=TKR;7576570]
That is painting with a very broad stroke. It sounds like people just regurgitating something they’ve heard trying to sound like they are knowledgable. [/QUOTE]
TKR, I assume your snarky comment was directed at me.
Not that it’s any of your business, but I have been to Germany and have seen the type of horses they are producing in Holstein. Many of the stallion prospects that fail to be approved there are better jumpers than most of the young jumpers produced in NA. That is the reality of their breeding program: we can produce a few exceptional individuals but they are churning them out over there because their breeding program and philosophy are so much more sophisticated. European breeders use TB where appropriate to complement their mare base, and they are also more realistic about what is needed to improve their breeding stock.
I am also a doctoral student (ie. I do research for a living which, to me, is one of the best ways to educate oneself about good breeding practices). I have enough experience and enough of a brain to develop my own breeding philosophy, thanks very much.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7577034]
Crowne Dragon hit the proverbial nail on the head with the comment:
A trainer friend of mine bought a 3 yr OTTB TB - a really nice, well built bay gelding. Never raced - no tattoo. Terrific movement, terrific jump. She threw away his papers and sold him as a " green broke WB" a few months later for $15,000 - and the new owners thought they got a steal of a deal . To get a nice “WB” for that reasonable a price.
He’s been in the ring for a few years now and doing very well against the “real” WB’s and the last I heard, he changed hands for $40,000. Everyone knows him as a “WB” and Im sure he;s held up as an example of why “TB’s” aren’t competitive in the ring anymore in top company, against “WB’s” :rolleyes:
If only they knew … :lol:
But my friend knew if she said he was a TB, a) no one would even bother coming to look at him and b) she’d be lucky to get $5000.00 for him
Sad really …[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately accurate. I sold a green broke tb going willingly of for 5k. He has been jumping successfully with his young rider ( now in college) for 4 years now . And I had offers of less than that … Frequently … Justified by buyers saying"why should I pay more than that when I can get an OTTB for less?" My standard answer was because my horse was purpose bred for this job, he has not failed at it. The OTTB is cheap because he failed at his intended job. That does not make the OTTB a bad prospect… Just explains why his owner is willing to take less.
There are quite a few OTTB’s who have been quite successful at their intended jobs: winning far in excess of your average show horse. They also have been expesed to a wide range of environments, loudspeakers, etc.
These horses eventually age out and for males especially, there is no reason for them to retire to a breeding career, so they are pointed in a new direction.
This ‘failed at the intended job’ would also mean all geldings ‘fail at their intended job’ because they did not mature to be stallions. Or that all ‘less than Olympic level’ WB’s ‘fail at their intended job’.
But a marketing ploy that works for you in selling that purpose-bred? Go ahead.
If you can’t sell on merit, then trashing the other guy is fair game.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/2013_sire_ranking_jumping_top_50_progeny.pdf
Chaman and Castle Forbes Myrtille Paulois both have 60% blood.
