In Holland a lot of people say that TB blood kills the jump. But with this horse it obviously did not! OX/TB%: 75.
https://ffecompet.ffe.com/cheval/TURZeU1qa3pNRFNUSXBoSDhLWG5mVkpGdS9PM0p0aGY
http://www.webstallions.com/etalon?nom=saigon-rouge&id=872
http://www.pedigreequery.com/dom+pasquini
http://www.larelationchevalcavalier.com/File/Saigon.pdf
Oh geez … :rolleyes: …
I could post hundreds of pictures of full, 100% TB’s that did Advanced level eventing successfully (beating out WB’s and WB crosses), and GP level jumping as well where NO part of the jump is “killed” at all … 
North America has an abundance of really nice, “purpose” bred TB’s that can excel at the highest level of their chosen disciplines. Europe does not - hence the bias against them by European breeders. North American breeders seek out specific bloodlines to produce their future show partners because they know what bloodlines have worked over the decades - European breeders either don’t have the access to those bloodlines and/or they don’t have the same knowledge because their breeding has been 100% WB blood.
And then the age old criticism that “TB’s are crazy and hot”. Ive found the opposite to be honest. My TB’s are level headed and easy and predictable to deal with and the WB’s have the “spook” in them that can come out of left field when you are not expecting it. The TB’s will walk by the flapping tarps without giving them a second glance - the WB’s will snort and try and drag you as far away as possible time and time again. I have found the TB’s are easier to train and easier to “explain” things to and make them stick.
Its ridiculous really. A nice horse is a nice horse and its up to the trainer / rider / owner to make it into the best competitor its capable of being no matter what percentage of what blood it has running through its veins …
In Europe most people think that because warmbloods already have around 40/45 % TB blood there is no need to add more. They think the TB’s do damage to the jumping ability and spoil the gaits. But at times a horse appears that shows that that kind of thinking is not always right.
[QUOTE=Elles;7575967]
In Europe most people think that because warmbloods already have around 40/45 % TB blood there is no need to add more. They think the TB’s do damage to the jumping ability and spoil the gaits. But at times a horse appears that shows that that kind of thinking is not always right.[/QUOTE]
I have heard that statement before, and I think it betrays a certain narrow thinking and ignorance about the importance of Thoroughbreds, and Thoroughbred blood in sport horses.
William Micklem did a wonderful series a while back refuting that notion, and I will love him forever for expressing so clearly what I have been saying (and trying to do with my little breeding program) for years.
Here is a photo of one of my homebreds, a full Thoroughbred, by the full Thoroughbred homebred A Fine Romance,
a winning Grand Prix jumper
I think it depends on how you define “jump” and what you’re breeding for. TBs certainly dominate the pedigrees of top level eventers, but there is a big difference between the jump required for an Advanced event horse and that for an international jumper: basically the difference between a 1.3-1.35 m and 1.5-1.6 m horse. If you are speaking about the goal of breeding a 1.6 m horse, a healthy dose of TB blood is valued but full TBs are few and far between in modern show jumping at the highest level.
Maybe this explains it a little bit?
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/wageringDisplay.asp?section=13&CK=E&YR=2012&key=32 Holland
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/wageringDisplay.asp?section=13&CK=E&YR=2012&key=13 Germany
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/wageringDisplay.asp?section=13&CK=E&YR=2012&key=05 Belgium
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/wageringDisplay.asp?section=13&CK=E&YR=2012&key=50 Sweden
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/wageringDisplay.asp?section=13&CK=E&YR=2012&key=11 Denmark
Only France has quite a lot of TB horses. But even the French seem to think there is not much need (any more?) for TB horses when breeding warmbloods/sport horses.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/139448
1.60m-spr
WEG 2002 Jerez de la Frontera
XX/OX percentage: 76,56%
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/92
SF 888605/8845276
hengst 1988 vos 1.73m
ggk: KWPN, SF
1.60m-spr
Ajonc werd bereden door Rob Ehrens
2000: overleden
XX/OX percentage: 75,78%
I’d say there are TBs who can kill a jump 
If I actually had the time to go through tons of data I could find more but here are some wonderful TB’s that excelled at the GP level as well:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10200082/026/Horse_Idle_Dice-big.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10485173&time=1400083517
That is painting with a very broad stroke. It sounds like people just regurgitating something they’ve heard trying to sound like they are knowledgable. JMO. Horses are individuals like any other living being. Not every wb has jumping talent, neither does every Thoroughbred. History certainly has recorded alot of Thoroughbreds that have won at the international and Olympic level. There has been a bias in the last 20 years or so favoring wb’s, most of which have inherited talent from the Thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds still have the talent and many more would be out there if the wb’s had not gained such popularity as people follow the flavor of the moment and they have had success. I think it is very unfortunate that more Thoroughbreds are not considered or given a chance by riders and trainers who jump at the higher levels. It has greatly affected breeding Thoroughbreds for sport and has the domino effect through the ranks of competitors. There is always going to be the need for “blood” in the wb’s. The Thoroughbred has managed to stand on their own w/o the wb when given the chance. The “modern” wb has modeled itself into a more Thoroughbred-type horse – must be a reason!
PennyG
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7576458]
If I actually had the time to go through tons of data I could find more but here are some wonderful TB’s that excelled at the GP level as well:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10200082/026/Horse_Idle_Dice-big.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10485173&time=1400083517
This argument is a bit old, but I will wade back in anyway. TC, I think you are getting defensive and missing the point. Two of the examples you gave are from thirty plus years ago, while the third appears to only be jumping at 1.4 m. These are not examples of TBs succeeding in MODERN show jumping at the HIGHEST level. There are exceptions like Favoritas and Coconut Grove, and these stallions are proving to be worth breeding to for what they can contribute to the warmblood mare bases. They are, however, NOT representative of the norm.
I’m not knocking the TBs. I have a homebred yearling by Coconut Grove. I am breeding to Sea Accounts this year. But I breed for upper level EVENT horses. I know what qualities the TBs bring to the table and I’m well aware of their limitations.
These old type “warmbloods” often were very impressive and nicely built horses http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1361_a.gif http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1397_a.gif http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1411_a.gif but I do not see them jumping today’s courses either.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7576573]
This argument is a bit old, but I will wade back in anyway. TC, I think you are getting defensive and missing the point. Two of the examples you gave are from thirty plus years ago, while the third appears to only be jumping at 1.4 m. These are not examples of TBs succeeding in MODERN show jumping at the HIGHEST level. There are exceptions like Favoritas and Coconut Grove, and these stallions are proving to be worth breeding to for what they can contribute to the warmblood mare bases. They are, however, NOT representative of the norm.
I’m not knocking the TBs. I have a homebred yearling by Coconut Grove. I am breeding to Sea Accounts this year. But I breed for upper level EVENT horses. I know what qualities the TBs bring to the table and I’m well aware of their limitations.[/QUOTE]
I think the TB’s biggest limitation these days is they aren’t fashionable. Very few people try to find and produce TBs as GP jumpers, and that’s why you don’t see many doing the job. In the days when TBs were a staple, they excelled.
[QUOTE=Elles;7576597]
These old type “warmbloods” often were very impressive and nicely built horses http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1361_a.gif http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1397_a.gif http://www.sron.rug.nl/~bertie/plaatjes/1411_a.gif but I do not see them jumping today’s courses either.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t look at all your photos, but the ones that I did see looked more like carriage horses to me than riding horses.
The French started the idea of WBs for jumping; the Germans followed suit in the 1960’s or so. The French had always had a very TB like stock, even in their non-TBs. Light and very athletic. Andy.smaga had said that the breeding goal for the SF was a slightly heavier and sturdier riding horse than the TB but with all the TB’s good qualities. And, as someone here has pointed out, French racing is not limited to pure TBs, so the racing influence has always been strong in the SF until recently. One rather wonders if the move toward German/Dutch WB types for their sport horses will create a new type of French Sport horse which is more like those from other countries. Now that the French have created the AQPS studbook for part TB racehorses, we’ll see fewer and fewer of the SFs going on the track, especially for chasing. One would certainly think that French chasers have a quite decent jump, since their chasing uses all different kinds of jumps, rather than just the limited ones used in the UK/Ire.
The Germans and Dutch started with carriage/all purpose horses and added TB to get where they are now. I’d argue that the athleticism they currently show is due to their TB blood. Course have changed dramatically in the past 30 years or so, I say deliberately, to showcase the virtues of the modern WB.
What I’d really, really like to see at some of the big jumping venues is a “historical class” using some of the old style courses that were used in the past. That would help to show whether the current WB is capable of excelling due to their innate athleticism and scope over this kind of course, or whether they excel because of the newer style courses.
[QUOTE=Fred;7576005]
I
Here is a photo of one of my homebreds, a full Thoroughbred, by the full Thoroughbred homebred A Fine Romance,
a winning Grand Prix jumper
Lovely jump in that picture, who is the dam of that horse please?
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7576458]
If I actually had the time to go through tons of data I could find more but here are some wonderful TB’s that excelled at the GP level as well:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10200082/026/Horse_Idle_Dice-big.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10485173&time=1400083517
The article about Blackcuda I find very interesting and especially the horse’s pedigree I find interesting.
Definitely didn’t kill THIS horse’s jump:
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10218348
Or this one’s:
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Butterfly+Flip&x=23&y=14
Crowne Dragon hit the proverbial nail on the head with the comment:
I think the TB’s biggest limitation these days is they aren’t fashionable. Very few people try to find and produce TBs as GP jumpers, and that’s why you don’t see many doing the job. In the days when TBs were a staple, they excelled.
A trainer friend of mine bought a 3 yr OTTB TB - a really nice, well built bay gelding. Never raced - no tattoo. Terrific movement, terrific jump. She threw away his papers and sold him as a " green broke WB" a few months later for $15,000 - and the new owners thought they got a steal of a deal . To get a nice “WB” for that reasonable a price.
He’s been in the ring for a few years now and doing very well against the “real” WB’s and the last I heard, he changed hands for $40,000. Everyone knows him as a “WB” and Im sure he;s held up as an example of why “TB’s” aren’t competitive in the ring anymore in top company, against “WB’s” :rolleyes:
If only they knew … :lol:
But my friend knew if she said he was a TB, a) no one would even bother coming to look at him and b) she’d be lucky to get $5000.00 for him
Sad really …
There have been threads going on here for years, with Viney’s comments, trying to pin point the TB’s who have the right ancestors to add to sporthorse breeding.
It is recognized that the TB adds the athleticism, and the warmblood adds the power. The right combination produces the golden result. Whoever saw a carthorse with a great bascule over a GP jump (…yeah, somebody is going to find the photo to disprove that, but you get the point, I hope).
Also, with modern breeding and selection, the interior qualities that make a great sporthorse are part of the inspections. A horse has to have the desire to leave the sticks up, the heart and courage.
Myself, I bred a sporthorse TB to a sporthorse TB, not to run, but to perform.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7577160]
It is recognized that the TB adds the athleticism, and the warmblood adds the power. The right combination produces the golden result. [/QUOTE]
Yep. For years Holstein and other warmblood registries have been using Thoroughbred stallions. The key is using the right stallion for the mare base…like always.
I just bred one of my mares to Canoso, the horse that Dr. Nissen declared best jumper at the 2007 stallion licensing in Neumunster with a perfect 10 for jump. He is out of a Sir Shostakovich xx mare who also recieved a score of 10 for her free jumping at her mare performance test.
Sir Shostakovish: http://www.bazakoni.pl/photos/00005698/0000024997_Sir_Shostakovich.jpg
Canoso:
http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idart=2043
[QUOTE=Elles;7576676]
Lovely jump in that picture, who is the dam of that horse please?[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much Elles. His dam was Macassa, by Same Direction.
Dearly loved.
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