Tell you what Viney. I have an older copy of the Jahrbuch Hengste (2007) that I’m willing to send you. It gives the breed indices for both FN and the Verband (which is based on mare performace test results). go through it, and look for TB stallion jumping indices, or TB sons. And see how TB blood affects the jump index.
Just PM me with your mailing address and I’ll send it out when I go vote tomorrow.
I agree that the trend in course design has moved away from courses that favour the TB. TBs can jump seemingly insurmountable obstacles, like some of the fences at Aintree, but they jump from speed (momentum) rather than from power like the typical warmbloods. This does not mean that TB qualities are not valuable in breeding show jumpers, just that full TBs rarely produce the type of jump needed for the modern course.
For the record, I am pleased to see that a colt with a TB sire was licensed in Holstein this year (Ibisco xx / Cassini II). Will he himself be an international show jumper? Who knows. But he obviously has demonstrated qualities (at this stage) that make him a valuable addition to the breeding of show jumpers. I will be interested to see what comes of him in the future.
Have been skimming through this thread.
How about this proposition:
There is nothing inherent in a TB that will either guarantee or kill a great jump.
But take a great jumping TB, or a poorly jumping TB and that’s another story.
I have seen plenty of bad jumping warmbloods–I wouldn’t bother breeding them, nor would I breed any random TB to produce a jumper. But I have also seen some beautifully jumping TB’s–I would (and have) bred one of those, with success.
My 2yo colt, Cougar Trail (by Jaguar Mail) is 5/8 TB…his jump looks terrific (he was born 5/14/12, and this video is from April of this year, so done when he was not yet 2yo on the calendar).
http://www.innerbayequestrian.com/cougar-trail.html
ETA: new video, 11/4/14: jump still looking good…
Is it because of the 3/8 WB? Or are there simply a lot of great jumping TB’s in the 5/8?
We have his TB grand-dam in foal this year to the same WB stallion (As Di Villagana) that produced his very good jumping dam, and her full brother now owned by Bill Schaub. No jump-killers in evidence.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7837995]
… but they jump from speed (momentum) rather than from power like the typical warmbloods…[/QUOTE]
that!
even though current wb sport horse breeding is desperately searching for tb influence, we need to be aware of the charcteristics why wb breeds search for tb today.
it is not the jump (as it does kill the power, as correctly mentioned above) and it is not to improve gaites in dressage (as it doesn’t, either).
it is to refine and maintain certain standards of refinement within any given sport horse breed.
no more, no less.
an average 30% tb influence within the wb breed, ideally consolidated and not “pure”, has proven to be the right mixture in general sport horse breeding for specialised disciplines, dressage and jumping.
however, reducing desired tb influence to simple refinement doesn’t imply any disrespect for tb horses, though.
thus, i don’t understand why wb breeders seem to have to put a flame suit on every time they are trying to make their point in discussions like these?
quite the contrary, it would be a little ignorant to expect a racehorse to improve gaites or jump.
as that is not what they are bred for.
it would be even more ignorant to expect from a hundred year and elder racing breed, that has conesquently been bred for the one and only speed goal, to be able to cope with the distinct specialisation of nowadays specialized dressage or jumper breeds.
these discussions have been going on boards like theses for years and years over and over again, arguments of pro’s and con’s have been discussed many times. naming individual former heros of tb influence simply doesn’t help. as former useful tb influence met on a completely different genetic wb base compared to what we have and face today.
we will not be able to change the current genetic status quo of specialisation in race, jump or dressage and we shouldn’t.
we should understand that these are three different disciplines that have developed further and further from each other and so have gentics. and the development of disciplines and genetics spreading away from each other has been dramatic in the last 30-40 years or so.
that is a simple fact we cannot and mustn’t deny.
of course, trying to find applicable tb influence is getting harder and harder the further specialisation in jumping and dressage proceeds.
that doesn’t mean tb is disregarded as such.
only the point of view has changed over the last century.
while it used to be that any tb was considered helpful to refine the formerly given wb base, selection criteria have no become antithetic:
“what tb is doing less harm to any given specialisation?”
i don’t see no disregard in formulating such criteria antithetic as it includes comprehensive understanding of both:
tb and wb genetics, their different origin, development and demands and their even wider diffusion from each other during the last couple of decades.
today, we are questioning the quadrature of the circle when having to add tb influence to specialised wb breed, reason breeders shy away from it.
nevertheless, the job still needs to be done in order to maintain an average 30% tb base within general sport horse breeding.
nature has it, that the further specialisation proceeds, it is getting harder and harder with every generation to identify applicable tb for simple reasons of damage control within specialised breeds.
but that doesn’t make tb a less valuable breed as such.
no need to put a flame suit on, just be realistic.
^ ^ That. To a T.
"Plus, many of the warmblood breeding registries annually publish breeding values for stallions producing offspring registered with them. "
isn’t that a bit incestuous in the sense of ‘we are only looking at our registry and everyone else be d**ned’?
Not including horses that are in the (jumper) population, but are not in the various approved breeder’s books pretty much guarantees that you aren’t going to find anything outside your registries.
So what percentage of all jump-bred WB are GP jumpers?
While I am sure it is higher than race-bred TB GP jumpers, I doubt it is a guaranteed thing to get a GP jumper from a WB breeding, or even a very high percentage of odds.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7839044]
"Plus, many of the warmblood breeding registries annually publish breeding values for stallions producing offspring registered with them. "
isn’t that a bit incestuous in the sense of ‘we are only looking at our registry and everyone else be d**ned’?
Not including horses that are in the (jumper) population, but are not in the various approved breeder’s books pretty much guarantees that you aren’t going to find anything outside your registries.
So what percentage of all jump-bred WB are GP jumpers?
While I am sure it is higher than race-bred TB GP jumpers, I doubt it is a guaranteed thing to get a GP jumper from a WB breeding, or even a very high
percentage of odds.[/QUOTE]
Not every Wb is a top jumper. But every Top Jumper is a Wb.
And not every Tb is a fast horse but the fastest horses in the world are all Tb’s.
Not sure what point your trying to make?
Go look at the post about the top 4800 jumpers in the world. Not breed bias, just the results. And yes Tb is recognized in the breeding.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7839160]
Not every Wb is a top jumper. But every Top Jumper is a Wb.
And not every Tb is a fast horse but the fastest horses in the world are all Tb’s.
Not sure what point your trying to make?
Go look at the post about the top 4800 jumpers in the world. Not breed bias, just the results. And yes Tb is recognized in the breeding.[/QUOTE]
While I agree with this post, it’s only fair to point out that the list of the top 4800 jumpers includes only FEI points. That means that the majority of points earned at the GP level in the US don’t count as very few classes here are FEI.
So while TB are recognized in the breeding, they will almost never include a domestically bred TB or TB cross jumper, no matter how successful they are in USEF competitions.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7839044]
Not including horses that are in the (jumper) population, but are not in the various approved breeder’s books pretty much guarantees that you aren’t going to find anything outside your registries.[/QUOTE]
Maybe so, but this doesn’t invalidate the data that is collected. Further, here is the statement posted by the OP:
As the original statement is clearly directed towards what TB blood does to the jump in warmblood breeding programs, the ONLY relevant data is data collected from the warmblood registries with regard to their populations – outside data is simply not relevant.
Well, since the most likely stallion prospect might be Gemini Twist, who while genetically TB is not JC, so is approved BWP.
There will not likely be JC TB registered FEI GP horses in the future, no matter if he is bred to JC mares. No one is training JC TBs for FEI GP, shipping to Europe and funding the pro rider to ride them.
Apparently it doesn’t matter to WB data to research the individual horse impact so much as the particular Registry and/or 5th generation tail female. Forget about the sire lines or the percentage of genetic impact.
It’s a WB. That says it all. And admits nothing about ancestry.
IF WB are now eminently superior to TB, and many have such a high percentage of TB as to be over 90% identical, AND if TB kills the jump, what possible interest could anyone have in adding TB in future generations? IF you breed jumpers, you would never intentionally kill the jump.
After all, the TB is not interested in adding outside blood to their fastest horse in the world, as it would be pointless.
Eventing jumps can also be quite a challenge, there is an example of that on this page: http://www.pinterest.com/samanthamlifshe/why-horses-are-the-best-animals-ever-to-walk-the-f/
This horse looks like a strong TB jumper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPw2JoHiTQ
[QUOTE=Elles;7846975]
Eventing jumps can also be quite a challenge, there is an example of that on this page: http://www.pinterest.com/samanthamlifshe/why-horses-are-the-best-animals-ever-to-walk-the-f/
This horse looks like a strong TB jumper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPw2JoHiTQ[/QUOTE]
Elles, I’m sorry but I am confused by your posts. A lot of good points have been made here (on both sides) but you sound like a broken record. Are you not reading anyone else’s posts?? I think we have established that the type of jump (and horse) needed for a 1.6 m show jumping course is not the same as that needed for international eventing. I’m sure you have something meaningful to contribute to this discussion, but your posts make it seems like you are not interested in being part of (what I think is) an interesting, thought-provoking discourse. I’m afraid that continuously posting examples of individuals is not the most effective way to support your argument.
TB or WB, it’s a MINORITY of jumpers who excel at the upper levels.
Bad jumpers of any persuasion (TB or WB) kill the jump.
Since both power AND speed are required in the right balance in order to succeed at the top of the sport, there will be BOTH WB and TB the pedigree of most successful horses.
Final 4 at WEG 2010:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=451843
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=HH+Rebozo&x=0&y=0
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=seldana+di+compalto&x=0&y=0
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10334753
In the final 4 at WEG 2014:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10421928&blood="a=double
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10993765
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Casall+Ask&x=0&y=0
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Zenith+SFN&x=0&y=0
In all the above pedigrees there is a variable percentage of TB (or Arab or Anglo Arab) blood present–but if there was a perfect formula, and everyone could be sure of what they were getting breeders would produce NO mediocre jumpers, just elite ones. (That doesn’t ever happen).
Of course, with TB’s, they are not being bred for their jumping ability–they are bred for speed. Only a few of those have jumping ability, and only a few of those get to jump, and only a few of those are ever bred (or should be), and fewer of them are bred to each other, because that’s not what the market wants.
But it’s ridiculous to make a blanket statement, when it actually is individuals that should be selected for breeding purposes based on their own desirable characteristics (if they have these) whatever their breed happens to be.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
