Tb neck set impeding hunter style?

[Theotherrider]

Ok, Thoroughbred lovers, haters, conformation experts, and conformation opinionators…

It seems like that classic lower Thoroughbred neck set (see photo), would impede this horse from getting that Hunter type of long and low carriage. Or is it possible? Or will it always be a struggle?

A friend sent me this horse’s pictures and videos. It’s an OTTB, from a barn that I believe mostly starts and sells to the 3-day event community. Most videos I’ve seen from them do not look like hunters, they look more like combined training candidates. But we both see a hunter in this horse-it is a huge mover, and despite the riders best efforts to hold that head and neck tight, several moments in the videos look like the horse is trying to lower his head and stretch out.

Your thoughts on a physical ability to obtain that Hunter low and long style with this type of neck set?

[Trekkie]

Thoroughbreds and warmbloods can all achieve long and low if they have the right temperament, training and ability to relax under saddle. Some horse breeds are bred to have a higher head carriage–Morgans, Saddlebreds, Hackneys and Tennessee Walking horses come to mind off the top of my head. TBs and purpose bred hunter/jumper warmbloods not as much, although the jumper and upper level dressage frames require a lighter front end and more upright carriage of the head and neck. A good dressage background can educate the horse to go in a long and low frame–the biggest obstacle for TBs I think is not conformation as much as tension under saddle. It takes time and the right training and personality to unlock a thoroughbred’s relaxation under saddle. Not all are suitable for a hunter job but it is usually not a conformational issue, I would think, as they are built more level than many other breeds.

[fivestrideline]

A lower neck set is going to make it EASIER, not harder, to go long and low with the front end.

That is, however, different from a proper long and low carriage with the horse moving over its back. Which can still be achieved with this conformation, as long as the horse is developed properly.

[ThreeWishes]

That picture has nothing to do with how a horse carries itself. Or how it travels. Ride the horse. See if it can be or be developed into a hunter. My beloved trainer always tells me horse puts his head exactly where you tell it and where your place your hands.

[CBoylen]

It is possible to find thoroughbreds with neck sets appropriate for just about every discipline? The ones the eventers pick out are not necessarily going be the same ones that we pick. But certainly you can find a hunter type TB. I don’t actually think it’s the neck set on that one, it looks maybe upright in the shoulder. It’s hard to tell from the photo but it might also be a bit short in the neck. But you have to watch the individual and see how it wants to carry itself.
This TB, pictured as a 4yo, won the hack just about everywhere. He’s old and retired now, but he’d still win, the horses don’t move any better and it’s the same people riding them. He carries himself in a nice open frame naturally but hasn’t much ability for collection, which made him a winning hacker pregreen and 3’3” a/o horse, but a bit limited at 3’6”.

My current TB, a field hunter, is a bit short in the neck, and actually wants to go lower than the previous one, but with more knee action, and with the shorter neck you just get a lower carriage, not the pleasing hunter picture open frame. He however can be put together like a slinky and can jump a house.

[OverandOnward]

This is about the riding more than the neck. Consistently.

And not abusive training techniques intended to force the head low – not that any have been suggested.

That said, if the judges where you show want to see a warmblood, no perfection of carriage by a TB is going to make them think the TB isn’t a TB.

Be realistic as to your expectations in the show ring. Not just from your horse. Whatever you are doing, do it for reasons centered around your horse. The one you’ve got on the day.

[OverandOnward]

@ThreeWishes

My beloved trainer always tells me horse puts his head exactly where you tell it and where your place your hands.

Absolutely !!! It is about the ride, in the end.

All that said – if you want to show hunter, it will be in front of hunter judges. They like what they like. Whatever that is in your showing community.

[CBoylen]

@ThreeWishes

My beloved trainer always tells me horse puts his head exactly where you tell it and where your place your hands.

It does, but how it looks there depends on how it’s built. That’s why there is a (narrow, but still) range of things you see in a hack. Some look better put more together, some less. Some are not going to look huntery no matter where you put their head.

[JB]

@Theotherrider

It seems like that classic lower Thoroughbred neck set (see photo), would impede this horse from getting that Hunter type of long and low carriage. Or is it possible? Or will it always be a struggle?

It’s EASIER to naturally move lower with a lower neck emergence, than carry more like a more upper level Dressage horse. But every purpose-bred Dressage horse aimed at upper levels, can also absolutely go long and low, and it’s a movement requirement at some point

@Theotherrider

we both see a hunter in this horse-it is a huge mover, and despite the riders best efforts to hold that head and neck tight, several moments in the videos look like the horse is trying to lower his head and stretch out.

Trying to hold a head and neck tight on any horse who doesn’t have the fitness for it, is going to look and be miserable. No doubt the horse was trying to stretch, his muscles didn’t have the strength to hold a high and tight position (just that image makes my skin crawl!)

Beyond that - this horse’s neck isn’t as low-set as I think you might see it. Imaging the withers less pronounced, and suddenly you see a higher emergence. It still emerges above the point of the shoulder as it should.

But you also can’t fully judge the ability by this part of this picture. Yes, the shoulder looks sloped enough, the scapula-humerus angle looks to be just about 90*, maybe a few * more, and the more open that is (to a point) the better the elbow can close to bring knees up.

The front legs are enough in front of the withers that the horse is unlikely to be heavy on the front end, assuming ridden and fitted up properly

So yes, this COULD be a nice Hunter, but you have to watch him move when ridden properly.

[Demerara_Stables]

@CBoylen

It does, but how it looks there depends on how it’s built. That’s why there is a (narrow, but still) range of things you see in a hack. Some look better put more together, some less. Some are not going to look huntery no matter where you put their head.

I haven’t shown hunters in years, but isn’t it more about a steady, slightly quiet pace, a soft rein, and the horse in perfect self carriage (meaning not collected, but carrying itself in an uphill frame while using its back with nose in front of the vertical) than about how high or low the head/neck are?

[endlessclimb]

The photo you show is of a horse in an artificial frame. They use treat/grass to do it.

I want to see this horse in an actually relaxed posture to determine if low carriage is something he/she could do in balance.

[Midge]

No one can answer your question based on that picture. It doesn’t matter what breed it is.

[Theotherrider]

All great points! Thanks to all. Ya learn something new everyday.

[Bluey]

@Midge

No one can answer your question based on that picture. It doesn’t matter what breed it is.

Right, for what little we can see in that first picture, it looks like that horse could develop any one way you want him to go, is more middle of the road for a TB, just needs training for whatever you want it to become.

Now, that is only one truncated picture, maybe another or better a video of the horse moving may produce whole different opinions.

[Live_Wire]

This particular horse is short in the neck and short in the back, true to his breeding. His pedigree is filled with turf and stick horses. They’re generally more uphill and have a better shape as opposed to the flat out, downhill dirt horses. There are better lines for hunter prospects, but this horse in bred to be athletic and will certainly do the job.

[JB]

@Live_Wire

This particular horse is short in the neck and short in the back, true to his breeding.

you can’t determine that from this picture. His neck is up and “tight”, you can see the muscling is shortening his outline. And the back is cut off, we have absolutely no idea how much farther back it goes or how long the loin it

This is why there’s a certain criteria for standing up a horse to properly evaluate conformation, and this horse isn’t standing that way at all

I also wouldn’t say that turf and stick horses have short necks and short backs. Short necks aren’t conducive to effective jumping.

[fivestrideline]

I think Live Wire knows which horse this is, outside of this pic.

Whether the rest of their opinion is valid, I couldn’t say. But I’m pretty sure I know what horse this is too

[JB]

Even so, I don’t see a short neck here even in its position. And even if the loin starts right where the pic is cut off, which I sort of don’t believe, that would make it a REALLY short back, which I’m not convinced of

Besides - what definition of “short” is being used?

[Live_Wire]

@JB

I also wouldn’t say that turf and stick horses have short necks and short backs. Short necks aren’t conducive to effective jumping.

Solid point. I worded that terribly. The neck is proportionate to it’s shorter back - creating a pretty well balanced horse. The neck ties in about where you’d want it to for a good jumping horse.

I do know this horse - perks of keeping you gallop license UTD

[Rel6]

If you see the seller’s ads frequently, its easy to identify even from the cropped photo the OP posted. I looked up the horse’s videos. Its a nice mover. Even in the videos where its being ridden with a lot of contact and pushed upright (which I’m not criticizing given the volume of really fresh/green/young horses they’re dealing with) you can see moments of the horse reaching down to stretch. Looks like a really nice horse.