TB People - Thoughts on line breeding Tom Fool?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

So I have a possible project for next season - or the year after - and wanted to know from TB people who are knowledgeable on good bloodlines for sport if it is a good idea… Or something to be avoided.

So the Stallion and mare I am looking at pairing would produce a foal with Tom Fool 4x5. I have heard from one person that Tom Fool was known for great confirmation, but also passing on difficult temperaments. So I am not sure line breeding him is a good idea for a sport Horse prospect.

The stallion is known for a wonderful quiet temperament. He has Princequillo in the direct sire line (4th generation), and is JC registered and used for hunter breeding mainly, although his dam line is great for eventing. He also has Son in Law in his 5th.

The mare I will ride and get to know and enjoy for several months before I decide to breed her. She’s doing nothing right now, and gentle conditioning, lungeing, flatwork and trails should be fine. The current owner (who is also her breeder) has indicated she has a lovely temperament and would have been sold as a confirmation hunter if not for a bad barbed wire accident as a yearling (uggh - barbed wire makes me cringe). So she was never sold. Broken, and used for light riding and lessons and trails here and there for a few years, and otherwise turned out. The barbed wire scar affected her front coronet band, and the owner and breeder thought she would probably have had issues staying sound if she had been put in heavy work or jumped a lot. So I’m going to put shoes on her, spoil her for a bit, and see how it goes. In addition to Tom Fool in her 4th generation, the mare has Nearco in her 4th, and La Troienne, and Ksar in her 5th generation. So she is an interesting broodmare prospect…

The other interesting thing about the match - totally separate and distinct from the Tom Fool factor is that the Stallion has Pilate 5x5, and the mare is line bred to Chilly Beau 3x3.

Pilate has 3 lines to Hermit in his 5th generation. Chilly Beau also has 3 lines to Hermit… Once in the 5th and twice in the 7th. So even though its far back… Its multiple lines to Hermit balanced between sire and dam. Interesting

I included a link to the TB heritage site for Her it’s portrait. Just for fun.

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hermit.html

[vineyridge]

Hermit is well known as being one of the great TB lines for jumping.

About Tom Fool. He was the sire of Buckpasser, who was often called “a true gentleman”, and Buckpasser’s dam was Busanda, a daughter of War Admiral. Buckpasser for famous for his excellent temperament. The Hasting line(War Admiral) has never been noted for good dispositions, so that is something to take into consideration. Honestly, I don’t think I would worry much about a double to Tom Fool that far back.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks Viney. That’s interesting about Buckpasser being a gentleman. The Tom Fool in this match comes in via his sons Winged T and Tompion.

And the Stallion is well known for a great temperament. The dam I will get to know myself, which is good.

I thought Hermit was supposed to be good for sport - maybe you already told me that when I was researching Chilly Beau. Too bad the TB heritage site doesn’t mention it. They did provide a lot of really colorful and interesting history about his win in the Derby though.

So how relevant or irrelevant is it to have multiple lines going back to the same sire within the first 12 generations? I think if I did the numbers right a foal would have Hermit 8 times in the 9th gen and 4 times in the 11th between the sire and dam. Is it significant at all - or just fun to research?

[tucktaway]

@Virginia Horse Mom;8839273

Thanks Viney. That’s interesting about Buckpasser being a gentleman. The Tom Fool in this match comes in via his sons Winged T and Tompion.

It’s going back in time, but Tompion sired the two exceptional hunter producing stallions, Sir Thomson and Black Duck.
My absolute heart horse was 2x3 Tompion through them.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Sir Thomson is the grandsire of the “project mare.” She has the most beautiful neck and shoulder… It is one of the major reasons I like her!

[vineyridge]

Didn’t they breed Winged T to Bally Cor a couple of times? If he had a bad disposition, I doubt the USET would have chosen him.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Yup. Bally Cor is the dam line on the stallion. I’m curious if there are mares out there somewhere who are direct female descendants of her.

[mareslave]

I didn’t find any

[QUOTE=Virginia Horse Mom;8839664]
Yup. Bally Cor is the dam line on the stallion. I’m curious if there are mares out there somewhere who are direct female descendants of her.[/QUOTE]

I was obsessed with her for quite a while, searched and searched and didn’t find anything, sadly. Even with Winged T siring 3 fillies from her.

[Elles]

This is the dam of my four year old: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10550308
Tom Fool 4 x 6 (also behind Son Ange). The breeder of my horse considered this mare a very good one.

[beowulf]

now I want to know… who is the sire you’re considering?

[Elles]

Rose Red with 18.8% Hermit: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=94061&blood=10&quota=
And Minoru: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=351443&blood=10&quota=

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Elles;8846191]
Rose Red with 18.8% Hermit: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=94061&blood=10"a=
And Minoru: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=351443&blood=10"a=[/QUOTE]
Rose Red was the dam of one heck of a good stallion broodmare–Aurora. She was the dam of Borealis, Alcyidon, Acropolis, and the superlative broodmare sire Agricola.

[Elles]

And Minoru is behind Serenissima, Mindful (Quick Thought).

[Elles]

http://www.theracingbiz.com/2015/12/09/pedigree-insights-im-a-chatterbox/

[fourfillies]

OP, I’d love to know the stallion you are considering. I too have a Sir Thompson granddaughter I’ve been casually considering breeding in 2017. PM if you prefer. Thank-you!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I am torn between Fun and Fancy Free here in Virginia… And Nob Hill… Also in Virginia.

Fancy is a JC registered TB used mainly for hunter breeding. But with the Bally Cor damline, and Princequillo sire line, personally I think he needs to be considered for eventing breeding with the right mare. If I end up with a very rideable and amateur friendly horse that is not an upper level eventer, that’s fine for me. And I REALLY like Joan Miller when I met her. A wonderful lady. So he’s a great option.

Nob Hill is also used for hunter breeding. And he’s 1/4 Trakehner. His trak background is Hessenstein though… Excellent! I like his confirmation and movement a little better than Fancy. And same argument… On paper, I think he could produce an awesome event horse. If I end up with a lovely type that is more hunter like, I’m fine with that.

The mare I want to use is not full TB (7/8), with a dam line that goes to a neat little Hungarian mare who went prelim with Marshall Grey years ago. Sire line on the mare is Sir Thomson (she’s a granddaughter). After looking at the combo of bloodlines again… and finding a new option for mare management… Which will be tricky as she is an older maiden… I am leaning towards Nob Hill. That will give me Sir Thomson 3x3. Which means I will have Tom Fool 5x5 and La Troienne 6x6. And more lines to Teddy from elsewhere as Nob Hill has Castle Magic as a broodmare Sire… Plus double Chilly Beau (twice in the 4: from the mare. And he’s a Hermit descendant.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+thomson
http://www.pedigreequery.com/chilly+beau

That will mean something that is almost 80 percent blood, with a bit of Trak and Hungarian as well. And nice TB. Something I personally would enjoy in my barn… My type of horse

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Virginia Horse Mom;8847135]
I am torn between Fun and Fancy Free here in Virginia… And Nob Hill… Also in Virginia.

Fancy is a JC registered TB used mainly for hunter breeding. But with the Bally Cor damline, and Princequillo sire line, personally I think he needs to be considered for eventing breeding with the right mare. If I end up with a very rideable and amateur friendly horse that is not an upper level eventer, that’s fine for me. And I REALLY like Joan Miller when I met her. A wonderful lady. So he’s a great option.

Nob Hill is also used for hunter breeding. And he’s 1/4 Trakehner. His trak background is Hessenstein though… Excellent! I like his confirmation and movement a little better than Fancy. And same argument… On paper, I think he could produce an awesome event horse. If I end up with a lovely type that is more hunter like, I’m fine with that.

The mare I want to use is not full TB (7/8), with a dam line that goes to a neat little Hungarian mare who went prelim with Marshall Grey years ago. Sire line on the mare is Sir Thomson (she’s a granddaughter). After looking at the combo of bloodlines again… and finding a new option for mare management… Which will be tricky as she is an older maiden… I am leaning towards Nob Hill. That will give me Sir Thomson 3x3. Which means I will have Tom Fool 5x5 and La Troienne 6x6. And more lines to Teddy from elsewhere as Nob Hill has Castle Magic as a broodmare Sire… Plus double Chilly Beau (twice in the 4: from the mare. And he’s a Hermit descendant.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+thomson
http://www.pedigreequery.com/chilly+beau

That will mean something that is almost 80 percent blood, with a bit of Trak and Hungarian as well. And nice TB. Something I personally would enjoy in my barn… My type of horse :-)[/QUOTE]

From a “forward breeding” perspective… as much as I like F&FF, Nob Hill would be my choice if you had only the two of them to choose from. La Troienne & Teddy are getting further and further back and in my personal opinion you cannot have too much Teddy on paper for eventing.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks for the feedback Beowulf. My concern was the maiden factor with this mare. Fancy gives some easy options for mare management and trying to get her in foal, But I think with a solid mare management plan, using Nob Hill is worth a try. Using fresh to AI the mare within a few hours of collection seems like my best bet, and I think I can pull off the logistics involved here.

I like the Tom Fool factor with both stallions, but I like Sir Thomson better. And the mare and Nob Hill look like twins… So the result is somewhat predictable. 16 hand chestnut with chrome and a really nice neck and shoulder -

Just for the sake of comparing the dam’s of these two stallions, I copied both mares pedigrees in here - Nob Hills dam has double Discovery. I believe his sire, Display, was known for a tough temperament … Maybe that whole Hastings line going further back is the root cause.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/playa+rienta
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ballys+image

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

[QUOTE=Elles;8846146]
This is the dam of my four year old: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10550308
Tom Fool 4 x 6 (also behind Son Ange). The breeder of my horse considered this mare a very good one.[/QUOTE]

Your mare is really nice!

Just for fun, I testmated your mare with Nob Hill… You get Tom Fool 5x5, and Native Dancer 5x6

His info is only partially complete in this database. Majolika was the Trak dam of Duke of Riva, and was a Hessenstein daughter… Awesome horses, but it means offspring is less than full TB. On the other hand, it makes AI a good option, and is a nice set of bloodlines for eventing. 7/8 TB, 1/8 Trakehner…

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10859833&damid=10550308