TB stallion Friend or Foe

[camohn]

There a lot of points raised, all legitimate, in the last few posts!

1. why breed to a horse with only 10 starts and not 50+? Because as meany noted, that is an increasingly rare thing to find in a stallion. There is one TB on my short list with around 100 starts, but with 100k in winnings at an average of winning 1 k per start is not a stakes horse either. Stakes winners…pretty much retire early to greener pastures ( green as in stud fees…). Geldings have no stud fee future earnings, so tend to stay at the track to earn their keep.
2. why not Say Florida Sandy? At 2,500 that is a top of the line fee for a sport horse breeder and chump change by racing standards. I loved the Confo on Not For Love, his stud fee was Not For Me. Many of the good looking TB stallions are priced out of the market. Now I know you were likely using SFS as a general example… but for me personally why not SFS? He is by Personal Flag, my mare is US Flag. Not a temperament in want of line breeding is Hoist The Flag…and it would be way too close up.
3. the confo questions. Always a balancing act. I do in fact want ideal confo. Rarely will I get it. If the horse is a talented jumper and a really nice mover with a good brain there are flaws I will overlook. Some are dealbreakers though. And because this is an Unbridled bred there are things very inherent to that bloodline I look for because they are prepotent: the wonky Mr.Prospector right knee and in the UB line in particular legs that are too fine on a heavier body. Generally Fappiano is one of the sounder Mr.P lines in a family with soundness issues… so yes in THIS family the horse must have retired sound for me to look twice.
4. jumping pics: the number of full TB stallions at stud that have jump pics to prove they have the ability …is a handful. To a sport horse breeder… a golden egg. A lot of times have to play the odds using a OTTB on looking at pedigree to look for proven jump lines. The thing is…by the time a TB stallion is proven his get can jump he’s old or dead most of the time. A few exceptions, but very few.

[camohn]

Actually his race record is of interest to me… but as noted as a sport horse breeder I don’t really care if he was a stakes winner. His winning races were at 7 to 9 f. He is not a sprinter. Form does follow function, and your dirt sprinter types ( which now predominate at the track… At 5 f and even less…) is built liked a drag racer/ muscle car. The stayers/ distance horses and turf horses… your classic TB, are more suited to being Hunter jumpers. People are no different. Look at an Olympic sprinter and a marathon runner. Both are Olympic runners… totally different body types.
If I was breeding to race I would stick with PA breds as PA has one of the better incentive programs. At least for now. The politicians are of course trying to raid that piggy bank…

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I actually do care about race records. I do like a horse that show longevity…but also an athlete. I have had horses who had lots of starts (one of my broodmares raced 7 years with 105 starts and a little more than $240,000 in winnings).

BUT some of the nicest sport horse and jumpers that I’ve ever sat on had few starts but were graded stakes winners. A top race horse is often a top athlete.

So I want to see either a lot of starts and still a sound horse…or if few starts, I want to see that they were a higher end horse like this one.

So his race record would be a plus to me. But since I like my foals registered, he wouldn’t be on my radar until approved by a registry.

[EventerAJ]

Agree with camohn and BFNE. Race record does matter to an extent. If the record is brief, it better have some black type (which this one does). Stakes runners demonstrate proven athleticism; whether their particular athleticism is useful for sport can be debated depending on the individual, his conformation, and running style. If you gave me the choice to breed to two similar horses with the same pedigree, I’d pick the 10-start stakes winner over the 50-start $5K claimer.

I had the opportunity to talk once with an equine biomechanics guru when he came to measure an expensive sales yearling. He’s been measuring horses (heart scans, bone length, body structure, etc) for 30 years, and said there are definitely physical similarities between stakes horses, and likewise non-stakes horses. What was most interesting, though, was that he once measured Bruce Davidson’s event horses-- and those Advanced horses fit on the same physical chart with the Grade 1 winners. That’s not saying an Advanced horse would win a G1 race; just that these are extreme athletes in each sport, and both need exceptional physical traits to be so successful.

It’s great to see some jumping photos of Friend Or Foe. His conformation may not be perfect, but I’d like to see him in person before making a final decision. Also, to me, it’s very important to see his offsring: what does he throw? Is he consistent?

I do like the pedigree; A.P. Indy over Fappiano is a very successful TB nick (Bernardini, Tapit, etc), and I have good personal experience with them in sport pedigrees.

[Linny]

I knew this horse at the track. He was one of those horses that just stands out. His action was lovely and his attitude was very good. He was a NY bred and one of the best NY breds of his generation, but he was a cut below the best in “open” racing. He also suffered an injury (possibly a mild fracture, don’t take this as gospel,) which took him away for a time. He was brought back carefully and ran well in the G1 Whitney at Saratoga. He was again sidelined. Meanwhile, everyone on the backstretch with an English saddle was asking is he was “looking for a home.” His final race was a strong second to a 2x NY Bred horse of the year.
As for soundness issues, unless you plan on putting your horse under the rigors of race or elite level event training, I’d guess that this guy is sound enough. He came off the track in the fall of 2012 and by this time last year he was jumping above 3’ so I daresay he retired sound. As a stakes quality runner in a high end barn, he was never expected to go out there and run every 2 weeks. He was a homebred and the Broman’s are not the kind to pound their horses.
As far are his build, he looks a lot like his sire, Friends Lake but his hind end is “all Fappiano.” The have a tendency to have a slightly “parked out” appearance about the stifle, but they have no issue getting under themselves.

He’s a lovely type of TB. He has great rhythm and a slow hunter looking jump. I’d love to see them get a bit of a show record for him.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=FairWeather;7483705]
HEAD–>DESK.

Also, Reputed Testimony died a few years ago.[/QUOTE]

I added him because its apparent FOF is marketed towards sport horse breeders… Isn’t there still
Frozen?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7484426]
I added him because its apparent FOF is marketed towards sport horse breeders… Isn’t there still
Frozen?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think so…and if so, it isn’t easily available.

There are actually not that many good TB sires available/marketed to sport horses.

[Linny]

Getting TB stallions into the showring and out to events helps.

The economics of racing means that even the modest stallions are usually at about the level of well known sporthorses in terms of stud fees. FoF is the only TB that I have seen advertised in CoTH.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Linny;7484897]
Getting TB stallions into the showring and out to events helps.

The economics of racing means that even the modest stallions are usually at about the level of well known sporthorses in terms of stud fees. FoF is the only TB that I have seen advertised in CoTH.[/QUOTE]

Sea Accounts, Sea Lion I’ve seen advertised… A Fine Romance. Mystic Replica, There are a few others. But not many.

The harder issue is finding ones that have been approved by a registry and are based in the US. Of those there are not many.

Other issue is even the cheaper race horse sires don’t collect for AI so unless you ship your mare for live cover…they are not available. And many will not cover a mare unless she is a JC registered as well.

[Linny]

Race stallions’ stats are very important and to sire a foal who will be registered as TB but never race hurts stats. The modest priced TB’s that would be under consideration for sport typically might only sire 8-10 foals a year so one or 2 showing as “never getting to the races” (even if they were not bred to race) will hurt the stallions stats and diminish him in the eyes of race breeders.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Linny;7484939]
Race stallions’ stats are very important and to sire a foal who will be registered as TB but never race hurts stats. The modest priced TB’s that would be under consideration for sport typically might only sire 8-10 foals a year so one or 2 showing as “never getting to the races” (even if they were not bred to race) will hurt the stallions stats and diminish him in the eyes of race breeders.[/QUOTE]

Oh totally understand why they don’t market them to sport or want them bred for sport.

It’s a shame though when there are some that would have been great sport horse sires…but by the time that is discovered…they are often long gone having been failures as race horse sires. A classic example of that I knew well was Taylor’s Special. He ended up left in a field out west…was rescued. I knew 4 or 5 of his offspring who were rejects from Charles Town. All lovely sprot horses…fabulous jumps and good minds. But not good race horses.

[camohn]

Even pricey mares end up in cow fields. One of my best mares( got a 7.9 at wb inspection… Had a slight gimp due to a stone bruise… Inspector wanted to give her a premium but said just couldn’t with the limp… Bruise or no…) I got out of a cowfield in Ohio . Saw an ad for her cheap, with an amazing pedigree. She was bred by Jonabell Farm.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7484548]
I don’t think so…and if so, it isn’t easily available.

There are actually not that many good TB sires available/marketed to sport horses.[/QUOTE]
I’m aware of this. Just don’t see how this stallion is an example of one.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7485695]
I’m aware of this. Just don’t see how this stallion is an example of one.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree. Maybe if he were a mare but stallions have to be held to a higher standard. He isn’t outstanding as racing or sport horse sire from what I can see.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7485695]
I’m aware of this. Just don’t see how this stallion is an example of one.[/QUOTE]

-Stakes wins
-G1 performances
-Decent pedigree
-Proven to jump around quietly and capably
-$500 stud fee <— Which is probably the biggest draw. He is competitively priced for his accomplishments.

If they were to increase his fee without a string of ‘A’ show ribbons, a major warmblood registry approval, or a slew of world-beater offspring, he’d be a lousy deal. Because as you pointed out earlier-- he’s handsome, but far from flawless.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;7485711]
-Stakes wins
-G1 performances
-Decent pedigree
-Proven to jump around quietly and capably
-$500 stud fee <— Which is probably the biggest draw. He is competitively priced for his accomplishments.

If they were to increase his fee without a string of ‘A’ show ribbons, a major warmblood registry approval, or a slew of world-beater offspring, he’d be a lousy deal. Because as you pointed out earlier-- he’s handsome, but far from flawless.[/QUOTE]

But the saying is “breed the best”… not “let’s put our mare’s conformation to the test”…

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;7485711]
-Stakes wins
-G1 performances
-Decent pedigree
-Proven to jump around quietly and capably
-$500 stud fee <— Which is probably the biggest draw. He is competitively priced for his accomplishments.

If they were to increase his fee without a string of ‘A’ show ribbons or a major warmblood registry approval, he’d be a lousy deal. Because as you pointed out earlier-- he’s handsome, but far from flawless.[/QUOTE]

Exactly…he is priced for what he is.

Reput. Test. was also not flawless…most horses have some flaws. He also only had his race record…at first. He wasn’t perfect for every mare. He did produce some good horses though.

I’d say this horse is doing pretty well for so recently coming off the track. They are pricing him right until he is more proven. Would need to look at him more closely and what he produces before I form an opinion on him.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7485732]
But the saying is “breed the best”… not “let’s put our mare’s conformation to the test”…[/QUOTE]

Well yeah… I’d love to send my mare to Kitten’s Joy… I think it would be a lovely cross… and El Prados have been proven eventers… but I don’t see that happening. :lol:

I don’t really know why I keep taking up for this guy at this point. The likelihood I’d personally ever breed to him is nil due to location. But I think he is a good value and has traits that I feel are worth passing along.

[summerly]

For what it’s worth, I have just started to get my Friend’s Lake geldings feet wet in the jumper world, he did hunters as a 4 yr old, and just recently did a great week at Thermal in the jumpers. Now a youngster with a brain that handles a huge show like that, has an excess of trainability( is that a word, spelling?) has a great jump and a lot of flash is worth their weight in gold. I think these bloodlines are going to prove to be great sporthorse lines! More power to FOF I would breed to him!

[Linny]

If I had a mare of the appropriate conformation, I would go to FoF. Maybe it’s because I did know him and love him at the track but he is offered at what I consider an “introductory” price for a young stallion.
Yes, I’d prefer seeing him out competing and I’d love to see more updated info on him on their site. Being as he’s young and the confo pic looks like it was taken just after his race career ended, I’d like more pics. I’d love show video. The form he showed in clips taken fairly soon after racing make him look like a very “huntery” type. His sireline produced the very popular Rock Slide and his broodmare sire line has been great for sport.
Today, I think that a performance record (hunters, jumpers, eventing or dressage) is more and more important. There are so many nice WB stallions out there and basing breeding decisions for sport on a race career doesn’t help. It will take several more years before any of his foals get to a showring and continuing to drum up interest in him will be tough in the interim.