https://www.facebook.com/pages/Smallwood-Farm/242496379171180
Smallwood has posted some pics of Friend or Foe babies on their page. They look like a decent bunch.
I think heās lovely. He has excellent jumping form, lovely trot and canter which will get better as he gets more miles under his belt. He looks to have a great brain as you can see in his videos. His foals look lovely too.
I canāt wait to see how he does in the show ring. 
Iāve seen FRIEND OR FOE personally. Very nice and well conformed. His sire, FRIENDS LAKE, also retired sound, is now in Saudi Arabia and was not a successful sire in the states. As I recall FOF was raced in NY and FL. Neither shabby venues and donāt recall off hand his trainer but I remember that he was a top echelon conditioner. Iām considering FOF for a couple of my winning TB mares though. Although, pictures are not the best way to examine conformation, the ones Iāve seen of his foals have impressed me. Of course, a poorly conformed mare can affect a foal as much as the sire. Donāt know if he has any offspring at the track, but heās probably not been bred to that many TBās and been at stud long enough.
I agree with the comments that suggests that if you are breeding to sell, FOF is probably not a profitable choice.
As for hardknocking racehorse sires, we just donāt see the PETITIONVILLE and DEVIL HIS DUE studs anymore.
The comment about ādonāt know what is seen in FOFā wasnāt too specific about what was not to like. I would be interested to hear what some think his negatives are as they relate to conformation, pedigree, and performance.
Saw Friend or Foe in person at the Warrenton Horse Show. Such a nice individual and his owner is first rate!
Isnāt he owned by Castle Coveās owner as her replacement stallion?
Yes, Phyllis Jones owns him!
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7793741]
Iāve seen FRIEND OR FOE personally. Very nice and well conformed. His sire, FRIENDS LAKE, also retired sound, is now in Saudi Arabia and was not a successful sire in the states. As I recall FOF was raced in NY and FL. Neither shabby venues and donāt recall off hand his trainer but I remember that he was a top echelon conditioner. Iām considering FOF for a couple of my winning TB mares though. Although, pictures are not the best way to examine conformation, the ones Iāve seen of his foals have impressed me. Of course, a poorly conformed mare can affect a foal as much as the sire. Donāt know if he has any offspring at the track, but heās probably not been bred to that many TBās and been at stud long enough.
I agree with the comments that suggests that if you are breeding to sell, FOF is probably not a profitable choice.
As for hardknocking racehorse sires, we just donāt see the PETITIONVILLE and DEVIL HIS DUE studs anymore.
The comment about ādonāt know what is seen in FOFā wasnāt too specific about what was not to like. I would be interested to hear what some think his negatives are as they relate to conformation, pedigree, and performance.[/QUOTE]
He was retired after a knee injury.
Was not aware of the knee surgery. Do know that the Bromans retired and sold FRIENDS LAKE to Bereton Jones for a hefty profit and he stood him at Airedrie. As a stallion the questions of unsoundness were not an issue. Surgery and unsoundness are two different equations in the racehorse industry.
Anyone who has seen FRIEND OR FOE will tell you āboneā is not at issue. Nor is pedigree.
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7795278]
Was not aware of the knee surgery. Do know that the Bromans retired and sold FRIENDS LAKE to Bereton Jones for a hefty profit and he stood him at Airedrie. As a stallion the questions of unsoundness were not an issue. Surgery and unsoundness are two different equations in the racehorse industry.
Anyone who has seen FRIEND OR FOE will tell you āboneā is not at issue. Nor is pedigree.[/QUOTE]
I didnāt say anything about surgery; not sure where you picked that up. I was simply contending the statement that he was retired sound. He was not; he was retired due to injury. Doesnāt mean his progeny have issues or that Friend or Foe has issues. Was simply a factual matter specific to that particular horse. Nothing more, nothing less.
[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7796577]
I didnāt say anything about surgery; not sure where you picked that up. I was simply contending the statement that he was retired sound. He was not; he was retired due to injury. Doesnāt mean his progeny have issues or that Friend or Foe has issues. Was simply a factual matter specific to that particular horse. Nothing more, nothing less.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying he was unsound and retired or you are saying that he was injured and rather than rehab him the Bromans retired him.
And I am saying that he might have had an injury but he was the son of one of most prolific sires in the USA and the Bromans were offered big bucks for him so they retired him.
So I could be right because as a farrier I know that injury does not always equate to unsoundness. Further, I Googled his retirement and could not find one source for this knee injury as the reason.
:lol: :winkgrin:
Good one.
I too love Not for Loveās confo. What a horse! He gets a decent stud fee because heās sired a high % of winners. Heās also very small (maybe 15H?). I have one of his daughters. Sheās tall and leggy though, must take after her momma. Sound with good legs considering sheā a Mr P grandaughter. Fast too when she felt like it (broke her maiden at 3 by 15 lengths). Would have loved to see what she could have done with a half way decent trainer and better care. Unlike California Chromeās dam, sheās a very self confident mare, thinks a lot of herself yet is easy to handle IF she knows yourāre the boss. 
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7796665]
So you are saying he was unsound and retired or you are saying that he was injured and rather than rehab him the Bromans retired him.
And I am saying that he might have had an injury but he was the son of one of most prolific sires in the USA and the Bromans were offered big bucks for him so they retired him.
So I could be right because as a farrier I know that injury does not always equate to unsoundness. Further, I Googled his retirement and could not find one source for this knee injury as the reason.[/QUOTE]
Oh, for heavenās sake. I am not trying to quibble whether retiring with injury equates to a chronically unsound horse. It does not. However, you said he āretired sound.ā He did not. He retired due to injury. āRetired soundā means they were retired, and injury was NOT the reason. This is not complicated.
If the horse could have kept going at a high level, they would have been able to make more money than Brere could offer. Donāt think for one second they wouldnāt have gone for that if it had been an option. Now, maybe they all lied about the injury because they had a questionable G1 winner with a good pedigree who didnāt look like he was going to train on, so they made up some excuse and took money off the table when they could. If thatās the case, I promise you no one was fooled. Nobody was beating the door down for Friends Lake. ORā¦ maybe he really did get hurt and not train on well. I can only go by what was reported, and what makes sense. You can believe what you want. I never thought this would turn into such a drawn-out thing, and I have no interest.
Hereās your source. Since I know her personally, and many people who work there, I assure you itās a good one. Take it up with Glenye if you have an issue. Sheās at The Blood-Horse now.
http://www.drf.com/news/grade-1-winner-wild-spirit-retired-be-bred-ap-indy
[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7798351]
Oh, for heavenās sake. I am not trying to quibble whether retiring with injury equates to a chronically unsound horse. It does not. However, you said he āretired sound.ā He did not. He retired due to injury. āRetired soundā means they were retired, and injury was NOT the reason. This is not complicated.
If the horse could have kept going at a high level, they would have been able to make more money than Brere could offer. Donāt think for one second they wouldnāt have gone for that if it had been an option. Now, maybe they all lied about the injury because they had a questionable G1 winner with a good pedigree who didnāt look like he was going to train on, so they made up some excuse and took money off the table when they could. If thatās the case, I promise you no one was fooled. Nobody was beating the door down for Friends Lake. ORā¦ maybe he really did get hurt and not train on well. I can only go by what was reported, and what makes sense. You can believe what you want. I never thought this would turn into such a drawn-out thing, and I have no interest.
Hereās your source. Since I know her personally, and many people who work there, I assure you itās a good one. Take it up with Glenye if you have an issue. Sheās at The Blood-Horse now.
http://www.drf.com/news/grade-1-winner-wild-spirit-retired-be-bred-ap-indy[/QUOTE]
Sorry to upset you. After all of this I still like my take on it. LOL.
No problem Shammy, and youāre welcome to stick to your take despite all evidence to the contrary. After all, if one can retire due to an injury and still proclaim āretired sound,ā then there would be a lot more advertisers hollering that from the rooftops. I guess theyāre missing the boat. Shoot, by that logic, Barbaro retired sound.
For what itās worth, I quite liked your namesake. Have a good evening.
For what it is worth I am a crusty old salt that when I started out working in the industry the terms āsound and unsoundā were used selectively and they meant something specific. Horses then weāre starting 50 to 100 times and juveniles had more race experience than all entire fields of modern derbys.
That being said, I get your point.
Rick Porter and Nick Zito have come along way since 97, havenāt they? Shammy retired here but we lost him to colic. I rode him just about everyday. He is buried in his paddock. He was a joy to be around. I tear up with the memories.
Best wishes.
As the OP on the topic of soundness: I take it on a case by case basis. Especially in the case of race horses. Horses donāt physically mature until 6, race horses are pushed hard by 3. Injuries are no surprise. But, if a horse is a mr P line known to be plagued with knee problems and the horse retired with a knee problem I look twice. One stallion I looked at was the hot new stud at his race barn. Retired due to unsoundness. He had terrible feet: shelly, very under run heels. As the old saying goes : no hoof no horseā¦ And under run heels will mechanically stress the knees.
Your description reminds me of BIG BROWN. Sound? Unsound?
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7798957]
Your description reminds me of BIG BROWN. Sound? Unsound?[/QUOTE]
Big Brown suffered from pretty severe quarter cracks which are caused almost exclusively by unrecognized imbalances (coronary ājammingā in the quarters). Just because someone pays top wages to farriers, doesnāt mean theyāre good a balancing a hoof.
Sorry to go off topic again, OP, but I couldnāt help it.
You make my point. Big Brown raced almost his entire career with this. In its simplest terms, he had an unstable hoof capsule, but that was not BBās only hoof defect. He had thin walls which made his condition more problematic.
So with remedial efforts, it appeared he was sound. He stands at stud now. Would you want to breed to him?
Would not be surprised to see some of his progeny suffering the same condition.
Personally no. The mare I was looking to breed is a bit iffy on the hoof wall herself. They crack if not on supplements, they do OK if I keep her on extra vitamin supplements. For her especially hoof wall was very important to me and bad feet were instant elimination material. And bad farrier work on race horses had never ceased to amaze me. I have seen it a lot on OTBBs I have looked atā¦never understood how they were expected to perform well like that. And trimmed too low in the heels is probably number one.
