TB stallion Friend or Foe

[Shammy_Davis]

I am assuming you are not breeding to race so to the point of this thread you may want to take a closer look at FOF. Very sturdy with nice way of going.

If your interest is racing, his grand sire and broodmare sire were prolific and sire a total flop. Bereton Jones got a lot of criticism for standing FRIENDS LAKE. As I recall his performances were barely considered top flight at the graded level. I have to be more careful about what I say based on my memory. But i would not recommend breeding to race. My wife says I am pre-dementia. So be sure you check what i say. LOL.

[rcloisonne]

@Shammy Davis;7799117

He had thin walls which made his condition more problematic.

So with remedial efforts, it appeared he was sound. He stands at stud now. Would you want to breed to him?

Almost every TB I’ve ever known has had thin walls even those with decently conformed hooves. Disclaimer: all have been US bred. This is what happens breeding stock is selected for one attribute to the exclusion of all else. In this case, precocious speed.

Would I breed to him if I wanted to breed a racehorse? No. But not because of his feet. He just doesn’t do anything for me.

[camohn]

I’ve had tbs with really good feet, most of them in fact. One retired TB mare I have now has feet that are absolute rocks for toughness. From a racing perspective though there is some truth to what rcloissone says though because the mares I have had that were the best racehorses on the track did have the worst feet of the lot. As noted…from breeding too much for just one trait to the exclusion of others. Like good feet! I don’t really see having good feet and trying to minimize conformational flaws as being exclusive to sport horses versus racing. I either case I think talent can help a horse overcome its flaws, and really there are very few perfect horses out there. The closest I had to a flawless horse was a mare by Notebook. what a beauty she was. I got her because of chipped knees. Sport horse breeders do go to more effort to minimize the flaws though. They are less focused ONLY speed or ability to jump . A race breeder is far more likely to overlook very over at the knee, thin hoof walls or bad temperament / work ethic if it runs fast. Certainly for sport horse breeders back at the knee is a death knell. No one wants that . Personally I try to breed for the biggest market I can. The stallion I ended up choosing complimented her flaws and he was also an A+ race nick. If the foal does not race, then it has the best shot at being a good sport horse too.

[camohn]

I’m not at all saying that there are not race breeders that know good biomechanics and care about flaws. I know there are. Just as there are careless/ clueless sport horse breeders. but on the whole most sport horse breeders do look at more than the performance record/ look at the whole package. things don’t always pan out, flaws still pop up in the woodpile. But I’m not going to go looking for trouble breeding together 2 horses with bad feet or whatever. Personally I would not refuse to use a horse with Mr. P or Storm Cat if it was the best horse, but all things being equal I would rather not. The bloodlines are so heavily used I would rather try and preserve some of the older less used lines .

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7798717]
For what it is worth I am a crusty old salt that when I started out working in the industry the terms “sound and unsound” were used selectively and they meant something specific. Horses then we’re starting 50 to 100 times and juveniles had more race experience than all entire fields of modern derbys.

That being said, I get your point.

Rick Porter and Nick Zito have come along way since 97, haven’t they? Shammy retired here but we lost him to colic. I rode him just about everyday. He is buried in his paddock. He was a joy to be around. I tear up with the memories.

Best wishes.[/QUOTE]

I am equally crusty, if only moderately salty. I think we are mostly on the same page.

I’m glad you have those memories with Shammy. Thanks for sharing.

[whirlaway4ever]

Friend Or Foe’s pedigree and some notes…

This boy is worth his price. If you take a look at his race charts on Equibase, you will see for yourself that, even in his own defeat in Graded stakes company, he still managed to outrun a pretty big Who’s Who of commercial sires / Graded stakes winners…

He defeated a list of top runners and sires like Ice Box (Gr. 1 Florida Derby winner and Kentucky Derby runner-up), Super Saver (Kentucky Derby winner), Mission Impazible (multiple Gr. 2 winner and multiple Gr. 1 runner-up), Morning Line (Gr. 1 winner), Musket Man (Gr. 2 winner, Gr. 1 runner-up), and Trappe Shot (Gr. 2 winner, Gr. 1 runner-up), just to name a several.

He’s LOADED with 9 lines of La Troienne and her 3/4 sister Adargatis. That’s more than Bernardini (7 La Troienne) and Super Saver (7 La Troienne).

As far as his potential mates go, he is crying out for some Nijinsky II blood as the dam of Nijinsky II, Flaming Page, is a known “genetic equivalent” to Buckpasser. If you need proof of the effectiveness of the Nijinsky II / Buckpasser cross, look no further than the pedigrees of Tapit and Corinthian. Send your Pulpit (and Ice Box, Tapit, and Corinthian) mares to him, as an added bonus, any daughters of Ice Box coming of breeding age will give a nice double to Belle De Jour! Mares with Cornish Prince should also do well, giving a double of Adargatis.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tapit
http://www.pedigreequery.com/corinthian4

More Olympia to go with the Olympia he already has in tail-female will be potent enough as well. Doubling Olympia is potent enough on its own without any of the other elements of FOF’s pedigree. If you need proof, just look at the pedigrees of Wicked Strong and Immortal Eyes. You can exploit Olympia through commonly-found Danzig, Dynaformer, and if you want to get really crazy, Copelan.

Be careful with Danzig. His blood is not very sound.

NOTE: Mares with Dynaformer will also give you the ever-increasing Roberto / Buckpasser cross. 5 out of 6 Gr. 1 winners by Kitten’s Joy in 2013 contained doubles of Roberto and Buckpasser.

Don’t let his price or his stat sheet fool you as far as a breed-to-race prospect. He’s got the goods. He probably isn’t commercially appealing right now, but if you’re breeding to get a racehorse, I think he’ll be as good as any in the Mid-Atlantic region as a sire and could turn commercial after his first runners hit the track.

As for conformation, he carries 3 lines of Buckpasser, who was known as having FLAWLESS conformation.

Get some while he’s still affordable. He’ll be unaffordable before you know it.

[Jealoushe]

Bumping this thread…anyone seen any of his offspring?

[anon6923113]

I saw him in person about 18 months ago. He’s nice overall - quite balanced and good bone. They had two babies at the time out of LOVELY Castle Cove broodmares. I saw two other yearlings by him at a friend’s farm in the area. Those two should be rising three year olds now and possibly starting under saddle. Both were nice - looked pretty correct. They were out of Warmblood mares. I believe he has some other babies who have been doing decently on the track.

[Jealoushe]

Thank you!

[Texarkana]

Friend or Foe is #30 on the third crop sire list… with just three runners to his name this year.

To put that in perspective, he is currently above Kentucky sires like Dominus, who now stands for $10K, and Bullet Train, who is 3/4 brother to the great Frankel and has spent his stud career globetrotting.

I’ve like this guy from the start and am kicking myself for not following through.

[anon6923113]

@Texarkana - thanks for that information and putting the success of his racing crops in perspective.

I will say I thoroughly enjoyed meeting the good folks at Smallwood during my visit. Their homebred broodmares were treasures… just lovely.