TB stallion - potential as sporthorse sire?

[snaffle1987]

more rambling but here is a son of Medaglia D’Oro. He’s 17.1, he’s big, he’s wide, he has a stunning look to him. Medaglia D’oro is siring beautiful sport horses who are gorgeous movers with substance to them. Have not seen them jump though.

http://www.clearcreekstud.com/gws-d-oro/

LENTENOR: (Dynaformer x Carson City). Half brother to Barbaro. His sibling is doing well as a sport horse. MIght be worth looking into this one! He has beautiful type for a sport horse/

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/166120/lentenor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GloCqJOhMLo

HIs Dam on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9T6K2Dl1I

Lentenor Cantering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joveFSa7qX0

[snaffle1987]

side note; Lentenor has a full brother (as seen in videos above) named NIcanor also available at stud in MD.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=beowulf;9020201]
Personally, I don’t like Clever Trick for sport horses – even that far back. For low level sport pursuits, I think they are fine – but IME, that is very much a race line, not a jump or dressage line… though I’ve met a few horses by Phone Trick (including one of my own) that were very nice movers. Just not sound. He looks enough like CT even with it that far back that I might not have given him a second glance, except I really like Candy Ride. He very much has the CT head + mini-ears.

I like everything else about his pedigree except the double to Blushing Groom. BG in a pedigree once is okay with me as I think you get a very potent type – sporty, big build, with some jump talent – but twice, I might be concerned about upright pasterns and straightness behind, which can and does cause unsoundness. A double to BG will bring a double to Wild Risk - Wild Risk is a source of jump talent, but he is not a stallion I would ever want to double to. BG doubled brings way, way too much Pharos into the table – which brings too much (IMHO) Phalaris, as BG was linebred to him. I think that’s too much, personally - Phalaris is a major source of precocious speed, but he’s also in just about every modern TB pedigree, ever – there’s no need to bring more of him in, especially as it is the current trend to believe that Phalaris is not a very sturdy/sound line.

I really like Carson City + Herbager - I’ve seen some very nice movers for eventing from both, and when looking at horses at the track have always had my eye drawn to Carson City horses. They have a very distinct air, I think – and most of them are pretty nice movers and very good jumpers. I think Cryptoclearance was Fappiano’s best son for event-type horses, but he made some hard kids – at least the ones I handled. The linebreeding to Herbager is promising - he was an incredible source of jump talent/turf talent.

Personally, from a conformation standpoint, I’d want to know what you want to breed him for because he does not have sport-horse conformation. His shoulder is placed too far forward, with a too far forward forearm – perfect for racing and speed pursuits like barrel-racing, not so good for jumping IMHO. There are some conformation flaws I am able to overlook, but for my discipline, a too-far forward placed forearm is not one of them – IME it does not bode well for folding limbs easily over a fence… it’s very much a ‘speed trait’.

You’d be better off going with a horse who has proven to produce sport-horses.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the analysis Beowulf. Can you provide a little more information about the too-far-forward shoulder/forearm? A quick google didn’t lead to much clarity on it. How is this evaluated? What are the effects on stride length and/or jumping ability? I think Spaniard’s shoulder slope/angle/conformation looks pretty good. What am I missing?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;9020367]
Thanks for the analysis Beowulf. Can you provide a little more information about the too-far-forward shoulder/forearm? A quick google didn’t lead to much clarity on it. How is this evaluated? What are the effects on stride length and/or jumping ability? I think Spaniard’s shoulder slope/angle/conformation looks pretty good. What am I missing?[/QUOTE]

A more forward shoulder, with forward fore-arm placement, in my not-scientific and purely-anecdotal experience, makes a top-heavy horse. It makes a horse that has a precocious stride, but a horse that is predisposed to be on the forehand and downhill.

I call this look the “Drumstick shoulder” - because to me, that’s what it looks like.

For racing, this is good – while the driving power comes from behind, you’ll notice that successful sprinters tend to have this type of conformation. The forearm is relatively short (and the humerus even shorter) and the cannons long[er] – this type of conformation is suited for speed, and is likely the result of breeding for speed. The elbow in horses with this type of conformation is much more forward placed than in other horses – and as these joints get ‘closer’ together, the length and slope of the shoulder is affected to the point where you have a straighter shoulder, shorter forearm, shorter/upright humerus, and lower and more forward placed elbow.

Jumping requires a different type of conformation, different twitch muscles, different effort - a horse bred to jump usually has a longer forearm, shorter cannon, longer humerus, steeper slope in the humerus, angled shoulder and an elbow that if you dropped a plumb line from the middle of the withers down, would line up with the middle of the withers.

I would not personally breed to a horse with Spaniard’s conformation if I was pursuing sport. He is very much a sprinter type. Nothing wrong with his conformation from a racing standpoint, but it is not the conformation you need for sports like jumping & dressage.

If I were looking for a race-horse TB for sport potential, I would obviously go with a TB that has been proven in sport: Sea Accounts, AFR, etc.

However, if you are looking for a RACE HORSE TB, here are some examples of TBs that I think have the conformation (and pedigree) needed for sport pursuits. Conformation isn’t everything, but it’s a start:

Musketier:
http://www.calumetfarm.com/stallions/musketier-ger/

Galileo (See also Saddler Well’s son Montjeu):
http://coolmore.com/stallions/galileo/

Black Minnaloushe (though he has drumstick shoulders):
http://www.sportingpost.co.za/sire/black-minnaloushe/

Majestic Warrior (a little too straight behind for my preference, but excellent sporthorse movers):
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/131758/majestic-warrior

Stonesider (a REALLY nice moving TB):
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/135588/stonesider

[Dressagelvr]

Has this stallion done anything in the sporthorse world? If not, why would you consider him?

There are plenty of excellent proven sporthorse stallions.

[zipperfoot]

Beowulf–thanks for the clarification. I found a good online conformation reference from Pony Club that discussed (among other things) humerus length, shoulder slope etc. After reading this, it seems to me that the “forward-placed” shoulder has a lot to do with humerus length. IIRC, the reference stated that the humerus length should ideally be 50-60% of the scapula length. That appears to be the case with Spaniard, at least from the photo. His front legs also seem to line up correctly relative to his scapula and withers, at least to my eye. Moving down, I do think his cannons look a bit long.

Looking through my latest Warmblood Today magazine, I spotted some horses with what looked to be forward-placed shoulders, but noticed that the angle of the photo could be a factor, i.e., photo taken at an angle relative to the front leg (usually behind it).

Can you be more specific on why you don’t like Clever Trick and Wild Risk?

Thanks!

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;9021776]
Has this stallion done anything in the sporthorse world? If not, why would you consider him?

There are plenty of excellent proven sporthorse stallions.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if he’s done anything in the sporthorse world. He did have a reasonably successful racing career, which I consider to be evidence of athletic ability, though not in a traditional “sporthorse” area.

I like his unusual bloodlines, especially his 8 crosses to Tourbillon. I’m trying in a small way to breed thoroughbreds with a higher concentration of Herod-line (Byerley Turk), so this caught my eye. It also doesn’t hurt that he has dozens of crosses to Teddy, who is known to contribute “jump.” Also many other crosses to horses sought after in sporthorse pedigrees.

That said, the whole thing is a no-go if he doesn’t have a good temperament and good conformation, so he’s got a ways to go to make it to the final selection.

[beowulf]

A forward placed humerus length usually means the shoulder is steeper/less angled. Not a trait I want in an UL prospect.

Clever Trick is not the best line for sport-horse talent. There are many better lines out there. IIRC, he does not have any direct UL progeny or recent descendants in eventing, and no representation in dressage. He was fairly prolific as far as stallions go (over 60 SWs). CT certainly looks the part - his kids are usually absolutely gorgeous, with good thick bone and nice necks and a somewhat longer back - great for jumping.

If I was going to have CT in a pedigree it would be through Mazel Trick (son of Phone Trick), who does have a few moderate level eventers – and I would only want it sire side.

I love CT/Phone Trick horse personalities though. I do not find they are hard to ride, but they do need forward. I had one that was just the most kind-hearted, humorous guy - he could take a joke but boy did he have a sense of humor - YOU had to be able to take a joke too. I had him in HS, and he was a very talented horse. He wasn’t even 2 months into retraining before my BNT trainer tried to buy him off of me - I could have sold him barely W/T/C for 10k, he was that promising of a horse. Sadly, I was young and stupid and did not sell him.

I find Phone Trick horses are incredibly clever. Mine must have channeled raptors because he was very intelligent. They are usually freakishly athletic movers and very nice looking horses, but for whatever reason have made next to no impact on the UL sport world. My experience with them is that it’s not the soundest line for sport… CT himself had bad feet that IMHO he passed on to his kids. More than one PT horse I know is laden with quarter crack issues.

Ironically, my PT guy had no issues with his feet but endless issues with his stifle, which was caused by a lease-gone-wrong while I was away training with a BNT. I’m not basing my opinion of CT/PT on him, but just felt it pertinent to mention.

Wild Risk is a proven sport line. I am fine with him in a pedigree once - at this point he is very far back in modern horses. Twice I think is a problem as he did not have the greatest conformation – he possessed some seriously upright pasterns that I would not wish to duplicate for soundness implications.

[zipperfoot]

Thanks again Beowulf. Clever Trick/Phone Trick did sire some nice looking horses, too bad about their soundness or lack of it. I always particularly liked Mazel Trick–nice that he had a little success as a sporthorse sire.

[snaffle1987]

dressagelvr, if you don’t like the thread; please feel free to stop reading it

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=snaffle1987;9024022]
dressagelvr, if you don’t like the thread; please feel free to stop reading it :)[/QUOTE]

Errm, Snaffle, did you maybe mean to post this comment to your stallion list thread? I don’t feel like dressagelvr has commented inappropriately on this one (see above).

I’m trying to keep up with both threads but as usual I’m confused…!

[snaffle1987]

no I didn’t. I understand their point but most of the tried and true proven TB sport horse sires are no longer available

Lentenor’s full brother is barbaro and as mentioned elsewhere, his brother was with a COTHer entering a successful sport horse career. I don’t think Lentenor has very big books of mares at all and he is a beautiful individual, always has been. So if the person is willing to try, why not.

Proven sport horse thoroughbred sires do not get the opportunity to be proven without the initial gamble

[zipperfoot]

Snaffle, I definitely agree with you that it’s necessary for someone to take that initial gamble in order to identify/prove a thoroughbred sporthorse sire. It’s a gamble I’m willing to take as long as the stallion meets my criteria. Then again, this is definitely a hobby for me–obviously not everyone will agree with me. The positive side: there are lots of thoroughbred stallions to consider!

[Elles]

Yes, it is not easy and it takes a long time and a lot of money. Combining sport with breeding is not easy either.

[snaffle1987]

Amira’s Prince in FL was new in 2016. I think he is just lovely.