teaching changes -- loosing counter canter

[rjr]

I know it is very common to start having problems in the counter canter when you start working flying changes. My second level horse was introduced to changes a couple years ago by a previous owner, and I think there were some problems. So I held off of working on them while I was showing 2nd level. Now that the show season is over, I am doing some work on the flying changes, and actually feel it is coming quite well. The issue is that for the last couple rides our previously solid counter canter is completely falling apart. On his bad side, he will get stiff, break to the trot, do flying changes, change in front, unclean changes, etc. – basically do everything except counter canter.

I am wondering what other’s philosophy is on this. Do you just continue working the changes (without drilling) and figure that once the horse knows his job and relaxes, you will be able to get the counter canter back? Or do you slow down the work on the flying changes and maintain your work on counter-caner and all the other stuff all along the way?

I do have a competent instructor, and am sure I will be getting advice from her. But I know there is always more than one way to do things and I would like to hear what others do and why.

I have taught flying changes to one other horse, but that horse was doing hunter/jumpers also, and I taught a “hunter change” long before we needed the dressage change, so it was a much different experience.

[DressageChic2]

i try and not get too wound up about it either way and i think thats the key.

with a baby horse thats merely playing with changes i only do them across the diagonal anyway so that doesnt impact mentally on the counter canter…if the quality of the canter is good enough the change is there.

once you are working them on the long side i always make sure i can CC large with inside bend, and that the horse wait on the weight and outside leg for the change and in between each change will repeat that.

if they change without being asked just walk and re-establish the CC,no biggie.

keeping the relaxation is the key.

[Pipkin]

Okay, I’ve not taught changes in a dressage context (my horse is weak through the loins and I don’t want to over-do it) but I used to teach my jumping ponies. They were functional, but presumably would have scored hideously So take this with a pinch of salt.

My trick was to change the bend, then ask. In counter canter, do not change the bend. I’m only talking very subtly, but if I used to ask for inside bend in counter canter, they would want to change - I had to keep them straight or with very slight outside bend. Do not be put off working counter canter or changes because of this issue. As the horse gets stronger and changes get less new and exciting, it will be easier to differentiate between the two. Once you are secure in both you can start working on changing the bend in CC with no flying change.

[beowulf]

I agree, keep the rhythm and the quality of the canter. Think small baby steps even though your guy isn’t a baby.

When I started having my old gelding “offer” me those flying changes when I didn’t want them, I started riding down the quarter line. Bear with me because he was an eventer, not a dressage horse. Counter bend, shift your weight, relax and ask him to pick up the outside lead’s canter once your straightness is established on the quarterline (so if you’re going left down the quarter line, ask for right) - think straightness and impulsion as you “push” him down the line - do a baby half-pass back towards the rail and then ask for a medium trot. This shouldn’t go on for the entire ring - keep it limited to one long-side.

The other thing you can do is go down the quarter line counter bent, pick up the counter canter, and leg yield across the diagonal to the opposite end of the ring. I liked this exercise for getting my horse really through and responsive to my weight aids.

That worked really well for my guy, teaching him to rebalance, wait, relax.

[theresak]

There’s a reason Third Level tests have no counter canter.

If you are actively working on changes, don’t school the counter canter. The changes can make horses a bit sensitive, so just work on getting the changes to be No Big Deal.

The counter canter will come back when you have the changes at about 80% accuracy and ride-able (i.e., on your aids). You can use a little counter canter to get into the change (across the short diagonal, hold the counter canter until the corner letter, flying change), but don’t school counter canter loops or serpentine.

Plan for your changes to take a year to get dependable. If you are lucky, it will be much faster, but really just take your time, don’t worry about schooling the counter canter, and make the changes ride-able and relaxed.

[DressageChic2]

see here in the UK most of the 3rd level tests do have counter canter in, it varies from a couple of markers worth, to round the short side, so you MUST be able to show CC and a change.

i personally would not avoid the CC whilst working on changes, i think that sets it up to be a big submission issue.

you dont want to be getting changes off the bend either, weight and leg are the dominant aids and you shoulder be able to CC inside bend, CC LY, CC SI etc and ONLY get a change from the correct weight and leg aids…

[merrygoround]

If you do ask for counter canter, make sure your aids remain crisp and clear. Be very careful of your weight and balance. The same with changes, .

For either exercise you do need a good strong forward on their toes canter.

[TickleFight]

What level was the horse going when his previous owner put changes on him? The reason I ask is that some people make the mistake of teaching changes too soon, before the horse becomes easily adjustable in the shoulders at the canter, and the result is that some of those horses either get confused, or use the change as an evasion later on.

Make sure your canter aids are crystal clear. Left leg back means canter right, right leg back means canter left. It really should be that simple. Also, you should be able to get good quality walk/canter/walk transitions on either lead, anywhere in the ring. Make sure you’re not neglecting walk to counter canter. Practice them on a quarter-line or centerline or diagonal, and make sure you aren’t relying on the reins at all in the downward transitions.

When you do work on counter canter keep him really forward. Practice riding him in a renvers position down the long side, and think of turning him with his hind end in corners and circles. Make sure that you don’t change anything about your riding (easier said than done, I know).

Beyond that it’s impossible to say without seeing you ride. I wouldn’t worry too much about a temporary step back in counter canter quality, but if it doesn’t improve, then you’re probably doing something wrong, or his canter work wasn’t as strong as you thought it was. Trust your trainer.

[lorilu]

My trainer does this: teach your horse to go with any bend in the canter - true bend or counter bend. This gives shoulder mobility and suppleness. The canter is maintained with seat and leg positioning. (Of course this starts at the walk then trot then canter. Horses must be rather balanced in the canter to be successful.)
Once this is established, it is not the change of bend that indicates a flying change, but rather a change in seat and leg position.

[piedmontfields]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8357838]
My trainer does this: teach your horse to go with any bend in the canter - true bend or counter bend. This gives shoulder mobility and suppleness. The canter is maintained with seat and leg positioning…Once this is established, it is not the change of bend that indicates a flying change, but rather a change in seat and leg position.[/QUOTE]

This is the approach I am using with my mare. It emphasizes the canter quality, which I like and it seems to be avoid confusion by make the canter aid very clear.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8357838]
My trainer does this: teach your horse to go with any bend in the canter - true bend or counter bend. This gives shoulder mobility and suppleness. The canter is maintained with seat and leg positioning. (Of course this starts at the walk then trot then canter. Horses must be rather balanced in the canter to be successful.)
Once this is established, it is not the change of bend that indicates a flying change, but rather a change in seat and leg position.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

[Peggy]

I was taught not to punish an offered lead change in this situation. Just quietly correct it.

Having said this, I put changes on two horses early because I was also showing HJ, and never had a problem with either the changes or the counter canter once they got their changes. As in I could do counter canter- diagonal - change to new counter canter- rinse -repeat. Really annoyed some people.:winkgrin:

[Beentheredonethat]

There’s no one way. You should have clear aides for the counter canter that do not confuse the horse that they may change. I was just doing 2nd and 3rd level with my mare and never had any issue with her even thinking of a change in the counter canter.

Go back and clarify with your horse the aides for the counter canter and insist on it. As lori said, change of bend should not indicate a flying change. Maybe you need to clarify your aides more with the horse. I would focus on the cc first because the horse is starting to ignore your aides there.

[DressageChic2]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8357838]
My trainer does this: teach your horse to go with any bend in the canter - true bend or counter bend. This gives shoulder mobility and suppleness. The canter is maintained with seat and leg positioning. (Of course this starts at the walk then trot then canter. Horses must be rather balanced in the canter to be successful.)
Once this is established, it is not the change of bend that indicates a flying change, but rather a change in seat and leg position.[/QUOTE]

yep,this