Teaching horse to stretch long and low on the lunge

[OceansAway]

Hello all,

My young gelding suffered a back injury to the lumbar region, and lost all of his topline as a result. I have had multiple vets out to see him, and they agree he is sound and exhibits no pain responses, yet he is locked in his back. It hardly moves, and will hollow. He also has an incredibly hard time doing any butt/pelvic tucks, and almost has no reaction.(Vets say his psoas muscles are weak.) He does back lifts very well. That being said, all the vets said the best thing I can do is build up his topline as well as get him to stretch, and I have been advised to use something like the Pessoa system.

Unfortunately, my long-standing problem has been getting him to stretch while lunging or long lining. It’s something that he’s always found to be a challenge, injury aside, with both me and the professionals that have worked with him. It’s as if he has one “headset” for lack of better terminology, and he keeps it static unless he’s attempting to rub his saliva off onto his leg. The hollowing of the back is all post-injury however. Under saddle he stretches more readily, but it is still not a strong point. He is built very uphill, with a more upright neck with how it ties into the shoulder, so I suspect his conformation contributes. (Because someone might ask, yes, he has seen a vet who specializes in chiropractic work and acupuncture. His Vit E levels are tested regularly, and I have tried Magnesium with no notable changed. Full spinal rads have been done. His SI has been injected. Vets keeps saying he just needs to get to work.)

I’ve tried all kinds of adjustments with equipment, having him move more forward, less forward, over cavaletti, bigger circles, smaller circles, transitions, you name it. No, I was never taught how to teach flexions to a horse from the ground or under saddle so perhaps that could help? I would love some advice as to how I can encourage him to stretch down and out. I have a chambon, an Equiband, sidereins, Vienna reins, and a Pessoa, though I haven’t used most of those on him. If anybody has some suggestions for us, I would be so appreciative. I’m feeling so discouraged, and worry I’m making him feel worse. Thanks, in advance!

[scislandsprite]

Hmm do you have any slopes/hills at the farm? They don’t have to be steep or anything but I find that walking up any slope will increase the longitudinal flexion and help build the muscle in the back and hindquarters. They’re inclined to stretch out and lower their head when walking up a hill even for horses that are prone to holding their head up higher

[Scribbler]

In the program we are in, we teach flexion from the ground including stretching to take contact with the bit. We also do a lot of lateral work in hand which helps with using the abs and back and hind end. If you get a horse longeing that knows lateral work from the ground, putting them on shoulder fore on the longe can get them to stretch down.

When the horse lifts its back, it’s actually the belly muscles not the back muscles. So belly lifts where you poke the tummy.

Also lateral on the ground is really great for core strength. We had an icy winter where maresy bruised her heel on the ice and I couldn’t ride for a month and all we could do was inhand walk in the indoor. So we did a lot of lateral work in just a rope halter. This wasn’t new to her but I never before or since have done it every day. Anyhow I was only doing this about 20 minutes a day total, and she ended up with visible ab muscles.

With a green horse start with teaching him to move his haunch, turn on the forehand. Typically a green horse can only do a few steps before swinging his haunches and collapsing inward. Persevere.

Once he can hold several steps of controlled turn on forehand move to shoulder in on a small circle and shoulder in on a line and shoulder in on a diagonal away from you. In all of this the horse has a slight bend towards you and away from the direction of movement and you want to see him crossing his hind legs to some extent.

Do it slowly and kindly and let him relax into it and his head should come down over time. This is more controlled than Western move the haunches. But you don’t need to make complete figures. Just wander around the middle of the arena looking for a handful of good steps in both directions, playing with moving from one to the other. A dressage whip used very lightly is useful. You want him moving away from pressure but calmly and intelligently, not rushing. He needs to learn the cue and he needs to build the strength.

Bonus, this is a fantastic foundation for lateral work under saddle. So teach it in a way that translates to riding.

You can also start teaching turn on the haunches with pressure on the shoulder. Eventually this morphs into the half pass category of movement with horse bent towards the directiin of movement and away from the handler.

The program I’m in teaches all this in a snaffle. If you want to work on jaw and head flexion you need a snaffle. But honestly I’ve found on green horses starting lateral stuff in a rope halter works better because if you do need to push a little bit you aren’t leaning on their mouths. You could also use a longeing cavesson. I’ve never tried doing any of this in a flat halter, either leather or nylon.

Anyhow, lateral on hand work will absolutely build up tummy muscles and that will help topline.

[SuzieQNutter]

They have to have the strength and muscle for long and low. I have never had a problem getting long and low with sidereins, however they were taught under saddle first.

The chambon is for lowering the head. It doesn’t do much behind, however it should give him the inkling if he doesn’t know how and then go back to side reins.

I dont like the pessoa to my eye seeing it used the horse gets a pull in it’s mouth every time a hindleg goes back.

Don’t look for anything to work immediately. It will change with days of work without tightening holes. It is the mental you are looking for as well as the physical.

Thinking about it, I have taught a horse to lower its head standing beside it and using the reins. A school horse who had NO inkling about dropping its head and went muzzle high. I HATED riding her. Their was no try ever.

I did this while waiting in line to be mounted. I taught her what good girl means and used the exercise to turn the head left then right then left and released when lower. This would go quicker with a carrot! Then used the same thing on her back. It worked.

It was my instructor’s pet horse which was a rescue. 3 lessons later with his partner he saw me riding her and her looking like a dressage horse and came and asked if I would like solo lessons with him on her.

[endlessclimb]

I use the equiband system with a chambon. Like the Pessoa in the end, but separates the front from the hind so they don’t get punched in the mouth every stride.

[OceansAway]

I do have some sloped and hills in one of the paddocks. I was avoiding using it because it’s all grass and I was afraid it might be slippery. I can certainly try on a dry day!

[OceansAway]

I actually have no idea how to teach any lateral work from the ground. Do you recommend a book or video? I’ve tried before, but had zero luck. I even have difficulty with the simple turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches, to be honest. I’m all thumbs and my timing is all off. They usually end up moving forward instead of sideways or refusing to move at all, despite pressure or taps. It’s all me-I struggle with most horses and am much more competent as a rider, simply because nobody ever truly taught me how to do anything from the ground aside from things like lunging, long-lining, etc.

[OceansAway]

Endlessclimb and SuzieQNutter, I particularly like the chambon myself, and used it on my mare. I was nervous about using it on this guy, in case he panicked when he felt the pill pressure, since he is so conditioned to carrying his head higher, and is prone to spooking with his head in the clouds.

How did you get the horse to stretch down from flexing left and right? I feel like I could flex forever and my horse would have zero response.

[Scribbler]

Hmm I don’t have any videos in mind off hand but lots of the western natural horsemanship trainers model good quiet inhand work. If you are that new to it, I’d suggest starting with just leading your horse walk trot halt and back up and turn away from you and towards you. He should have his head at your shoulder, with a loose lead rope, and he should start following your cues, like halt when you do. You and the horse need to develop timing together. Backing up a few steps with lowered head is good for abs too.

Do this until you and the horse have a shared vocabulary of cues and he is paying attention to you and you can walk and jog changes of direction and halt in hand. Also get him backing up on a light cue. The goal is to have his attention at all times inhand, even when just walking him to turnout. Never drag him around or let him haul you around. You want him “with” you at all times.

Then when you start asking for a turn on the forehand you aren’t dealing with a moose that barges through you.

If you don’t have access to a trainer that knows these things I’m sure you could still find someone to help, even another ammie, that has some sense of how to get a horse walking and backing in hand and listening to your cues.

I’m always surprised at how many fairly skilled English riders have about zero idea how to work on the ground. Honestly I find it much easier than riding once the horse is aware of you and listening for cues.

I’d also suggest teaching the horse whoa to stand and a cue like clucking to move, and I like to teach a horse to stand essentially ground tied while I walk away, then come when I whistle. I think it’s useful to train cues for things that are not physically or emotionally challenging for a horse, so they get experience listening to cues in a neutral setting. So it’s not like all cues are to do something difficult or new.

I also try to teach voice cues along with pressure cues for lateral work which sometimes helps disambuiguate things in the saddle.

[OceansAway]

Thanks, Scribbler. Yes, I feel like so many even upper level trainers have little concept of groundwork. So many don’t do the work with their young horses themselves, and instead send them out. The best groundwork “lesson” I got was in Arkansas when I was looking at young horses. The woman essentially taught herself from books, because she had little access to instruction. The horses did everything for her, and then ignored everything I asked because I’m sure I was doing it wrong.

[outerbanks77]

I think Manolo Mendez’ videos would be perfect for you. It comes on DVD or Vimeo, and there is a FaceBook group that you can join for support once you’ve purchased the videos.

[Jealoushe]

The best way to achieve this is is without any gadgets. Just a halter and a lunge, I like to use a rope halter. Your horse has to be trained to lunge decently, then when trotting ask them to slow the trot as much as possible. Use a soft voice to talk them and help them relax. You can pull the lunge slightly and soft to get them to look towards you like a slight flex. I guarantee if you try this method after one or two lunges your horse will start stretching and once they start they want to all the time.

Canter trot transitions can help then try the slow slow trot again and I bet you’ll see a stretch!

[OceansAway]

I’d prefer no gadgets to be honest. I have tried this before, and when I turn his head to look at me, he just moves in closer to me instead of staying out on the circle. I’ve tried pointing the whip at his shoulder to keep him out while I do so, but he gets anxious instead and runs. Any tips?

[anon68314200]

I am in Marijke De Jong’s Straightness Training Program and we use longe with only Cavesson and very slow progression out onto a longer line. Start with standstill and ground work exercises. If you have the time and $300/month to spend, it is worth looking into the program.

[cbg]

This is a little off topic from your question but since you specifically mention psoas muscle I thought I’d share this. I have a horse who jumped out of his paddock when a tree fell down and scared him. He looked fine, was totally sound and felt normal at the walk, trot and canter to the left. But cantering right his butt felt like it was on the inside track. You couldn’t really see it from the ground but could definitely feel it when riding. My vet examined, flexed, ultrasounded and xrayed but couldn’t find anything. He hopped on for a quick canter and immediately felt what I was describing, but didn’t know exactly what to do to solve the problem.

I gave him some time off and everything felt exactly the same - butt still to the inside when cantering. Did PRP on the SI, still felt exactly the same. Did acupuncture, still felt the same. Used the Bemer blanket, still felt the same. Did shockwave on the back and SI, helped some but not entirely.

Vet was out looking at the horse again and doing some flexions then having me canter away alternating leads. One flexion/stretch he kind of pulled the hind leg out behind the horse and that time the canter felt straighter. Still had no idea exactly what the problem was but we knew that particular stretch helped.

My chiro came to work on the horse and I was telling her all of this. She said she’d seen that stretch once help a horse who had a psoas muscle issue. I called my vet and he came out and blocked the right psoas muscle and lo and behold the butt was no longer on the inside track. Vet shockwaved the right psoas and horse was 95% better. Shockwaved again in two weeks and horse was 100%.

I mentioned this to a few people including other vets and everyone said that shockwave doesn’t go deep enough to reach the psoas muscle. But since my vet did the block ultrasound guided, he knew exactly how deep he had to go for the block and knew his shockwave probe was sufficient to reach that depth. My vet also did some research on stretches to help the psoas muscle. Butt tucks were specifically not recommended for psoas injuries. He had me doing hind leg retraction and a few other stretches.

Again, a little off topic with respect to your question, but having discovered firsthand how elusive a psoas problem can be, I just thought I’d share.

[Jealoushe]

So that’s more of a lunging issue, check out YouTube there are a lot of great videos on how to train the lunge.

My advice is start at the walk and smaller circles. When they learn their job then they can have a bigger circle.

[Scribbler]

Well, you have to teach him that a certain whip cue means move your haunch and another means go faster. Just like inset saddle a leg cue can be either. Which is why you need to teach this in hand first.

[starsandsun]

You may choose to look at Jec Ballou’s exercises in any of her books. I’ve used them with great success.

Also am using the Eagle Pro-Six and it’s a game changer for my horse. He loves it so much I can put it on him while he’s getting his feet done.

[SuzieQNutter]

@OceansAway

How did you get the horse to stretch down from flexing left and right? I feel like I could flex forever and my horse would have zero response.

With any horse you can not add more pressure than they understand. The method I used I was very careful and if she did not understand I would have dropped the pressure. On the ground I asked her to look left with the left rein and then gently without giving the left rein I asked her to look right with the right rein. Any drop and ask left, any drop and asked right. This is not a massive turne either way. It is the change from left to right not how far they turn that you are looking for.

With her I first taught her a long stroke on the neck and the words Good Girl were her reward.

OMG. The first tiny drop in the saddle and I stroked and said Good Girl. I swear in the other lessons no matter what I did not a milimetre of any lowering. In the end a stroke along her neck and she would relax and lower her nose.

She was already fit from being in riding lessons so I was careful knowing that she was using muscles she hadn’t used before. However I am an experienced rider and, sigh, seem to be very experienced at teaching green out of work horses, so I seem to be stuck there, but once she got the inkling to drop. I could give the inside rein, while still holding the outside rein and by then just the words Good Girl had her relaxing, by then I was usingseatcand legs, so the change to a dressage horse was very quick, for someone who was not really watching.

Although she had been going with her muzzle over the wither for over a year.

So with the chambon you put it on loose. You never put anything on tight. If you put it on and they react it is too tight. You lunge for a week with no reaction. If after a week still no reaction you tighten one hole. But as I said I have done this with sidereins. Side reins are not classed as a gadget. Every thing else is a gadget and I don’t use gadgets.

[IPEsq]

I think for a lumbar problem, I’d focus on work with the Equicore system, maybe some poles or raised cavaletti with your lunge work, and maybe try something like the surefoot pads with your stretches.

To be correctly long and low, they still need to be lifted in the belly and withers and coming up from behind. It’s just the neck stretches forward and down and so you will also get a rounded stretch through the topline.

It’s likely he’s not even strong enough to do that even if it was something more natural for him to do.

All of the rest will help him with using his core, proprioception and engagement of the legs, and if you can build up to some cavaletti single jumps or bounces, that will encourage him to loosen up and flex through the lumbar.

He could strain himself if he can really invert and spook, and you might be able to stop that extreme movement with something like a neck stretcher (similar idea to chambon), but you can’t teach him what to do with his back just by restricting his neck into long and low. If he’s weak, you might just be asking for more pounding on the front feet.