Teaching older horse to be mellow in cross ties, or any tie

[arabiansrock]

Not quite a spinoff of the pulling back when tied. My new boy (I got him at the end of Oct) is very anxious in cross ties, or any tie, particularly before he has been worked. He is somewhat calmer after work, but still “on alert”. He is 18, had 7 years off retired in pasture, prior to that he was a national top 10 hunter pleasure for jr (under 10) riders. He is arab.

When I bring him up, he is just literally quivering. If I put him in ties, he jigs, stares off into distance, stares back down toward pasture, or at the neighbors field (they have babies in the field). I cannot safely leave him to run back and forth to the tack locker most of the time. Some days he is more mellow tho. After a good work, he will be more content to stand, he is quieter, altho still “on alert” head up, staring at whatever.

But under saddle (after he has been lunged) he is wonderful. I feel very safe on him, he is looky but not stupid spooky, if that makes sense. BUT he has to be lunged first, we tried riding without and it was a disaster. He was ready to EXPLODE. Daughter hopped off while he was in motion and we lunged him, then had her get back on (love having a daughter to ride out the crazies for me) and he was fine. Totally fine.

Basically, I have tried to make him feel safe in the ties, when he is too anxious we just skip grooming and have a quick lunge, then go groom. But it is getting REALLY annoying, and it makes it hard to enjoy him, when he is so anxious on the ground. How can I get him to just CHILL in the ties and learn to relax? I have never had one this anxious over being confined, others who have been nervous when tied, I have been able to teach that it is safe and ok by being calm and increasing the time they are tied, providing supervision, etc. Nothing is working with this guy. HELP!!!

[Abbie.S]

It sounds like he is just anxious altogether, not just being tied but before he’s been allowed to blow off steam.

Pony needs to learn how to focus without being given the opportunity to blow up first. I’ve owned a horse who also “needed” the time on the lunge to get all the butterflies out, but he knew very well when that time was, and when it was over.

Can you spend a couple weeks not worrying about riding, and focused on getting HIM focused? That may mean bringing him to the spot where he is expected to stand, and just standing there. Rope halters are handy for this. As soon as he starts to look, fidget, etc., “bop” him on the nose by quickly jerking the rope. If he continues to look and fidget, bop him again. Do it until he stops and looks at you. Then pet him. As soon as he looks away, starts to fidget, bop him. Pet him again as soon as he looks at you. He needs to know that under no uncertain terms is he to be interested in anything but standing quietly (and, in doing so, being focused on you!), and you need to continue to remind him of that until he figures it out. This could take a while. He might blow up, he might get annoyed, he might get worse before he gets better. But a focused horse is a relaxed horse.

I had to do this exact rinse-and-repeat scenario with my old guy, who was a rattled, unfocused mess in general. After about a week of this daily, he was significantly better. Some gentle reminders were all that were needed after that.

[ReadtheLyric09]

Are other horses in the barn while he’s in the cross-ties? Sounds like he’s on high alert because he’s away from the herd.

My older mare comes unglued if the only horse in the barn when being tacked. She is the mare constantly watching and on guard - the first to raise the alarm if something is amiss. She has had a lifetime of other horses in the barn and was in a barn fire (only survivor in her aisle), either of which could be the reason, I suppose. She’s content with just one other horse inside as long as she can see the horse while being tacked. Once a foot is in the stirrup she doesn’t care one bit if a horse is inside or not. She’s a rock solid horse otherwise, so I merely bring in her pasture mate if riding when all the horses are outside.

[arabiansrock]

I have tried “bopping” him on the nose but he is just the slightest head shy, and when you bop him, his instinct is to throw his head up higher, and trying to bop it down lower really agitates him.

He can’t see other horses in the barn cant’ see into stalls from the cross ties, but this behavior continues even when there are other horses where he can see them, eg in cross ties or in arena. If I just put the rope through a ring and don’t tie it, and let him move around at the end of the rope he is much calmer, he will find a place he is comfortable to stand, but this is not a good solution in my mind. I can’t walk away because he could leave, he can be in the way of others this way, and you can’t tie to a trailer like this at a show!

[Simbalism]

When I got my very green OTTB mare, she did not crosstie well and was a little anxious tying to my trailer. For single tying to my trailer, I would get out all my stuff and then tie her to groom and tack up. I would put alfalfa forage in a bucket and hang for her to munch on. For crossties, I would get everything ready that I planned to use and then crosstie her. I always kept a pocketful of treats and every time she started to get a little antsy, I would give her a treat and rub on her and distract her.

[The_Centaurian]

Mr. Horse does not tie. It’s no big deal. I just tack up in a stall.

[DancingArabian]

IMO, he needs groundwork. I don’t think he feels safe with you, and certainly does not see you as his leader - he’s staring off into the distance to where he would rather be and is wiggling around. Groundwork, groundwork, groundwork.

[theresak]

Are the cross ties taut when hooked up? He might need just a little play in the cross ties or they might be so loose he can twist his neck around too far.

Go during a quiet time and get a ride in. Then return to the barn, close the doors, cross tie him, and walk away. Maybe clean some tack in the aisle a few feet away, or go organize the tack room. Be somewhere you can hear him or see if he gets really twisted up, but just leave him alone to bounce around and figure it out.

Once he’s pretty dependable in the cross ties after you ride, start doing the same before you ride.

My horse never knows how long I’ll leave him in the cross ties before or after a ride. Sometimes it’s 15 minutes before we are tacked up but sometimes it’s 45 minutes if I put some BOT stuff on and go mix his feed, fill hay nets, clean his stall, stop and chat, etc. He stands in the cross ties and takes a nap.

Unless the horse is pawing or in danger of turning around in the cross ties, I leave them alone. The only time they need to stand still is when I’m actually grooming and tacking up.

[arabiansrock]

His ground work is actually wonderful… Can do ANYTHING with him on the ground. If he gets scared of something he jumps straight up and down, I feel totally safe that he will not invade my space. If I tell him “its ok” then he trusts me and goes.

I would definitely tack up in a stall if I had one! At shows that will absolutely be what I do. I suspect that may be how he was handled in the past.

I would also really like to get to where I don’t have to lunge him before riding. He is 18 and I REALLY don’t like have to lunge older horses like that. It just isn’t good for their legs/hocks. He lives out 24/7 so it isn’t a lack of turnout, altho our pastures are really more like large dirt paddocks, it isn’t like he is locked up in a 12 x 12 stall.

He does paw in the ties and try to turn around, and I know from experience (not my horse) that horses can indeed turn around in our cross ties. Since it isn’t my barn however, I can’t change what they are, just how I use them.

Also interesting, is he has clearly been trained to not pee in the arena, because EVERY SINGLE TIME we ride, as soon as I put him back in the ties, he pees. LIke immediately. I know this is good, in a way, but it also means he could be uncomfortable while working but wont pee so he can feel better.

[Chief2]

I had one who was so nervous in the aisle that we ended up having him trimmed in the stall, as well. As long as the space around him as protected and he saw it as his space, he was fine. In between farrier visits, we tied in the aisle on one tie only, with my free hand holding the lead rope for a while until he calmed down, and then eventually went to two ties. It took him years to calm down in the aisle. It is a very busy barn.

An older rescue mare I took in never made it past using only one tie. She was so nervous in the aisle she peed and pooped there non-stop. The only way to get anything done and keep her quiet and sane in the aisle was to tie her on the off side, and hold the lead rope attached to her halter on the near side. Then she could cope. Not using the aisle at all would have been her number one preference, which at times I also accommodated. We spent a lot of time outdoors.

[arabiansrock]

Chief - yours sounds more like mine…, EXCEPT oddly enough, he will stand crosstied PERFECTLY for the farrier. Now it is in another barn away from any activity so…

It just seems like a horse who is so calm under saddle should also be calm in the cross ties.

Thank you for all the suggestions so far, I appreciate it!

[eventerchick517]

Have you had other show arabians before? I only ask because I have recently been introduced to the world of show arabians and it’s a fairly different management program than what I consider “normal” as a sport horse person.

The ones I have been around are ALL worked on the ground(longed, long lined, ground driven) before the work under saddle, doesn’t matter how old they are. Not sure what sort of program your guy is(or has been) in. But that might be something to consider. Also, the main ring arabians don’t seem to be turned out very often(aside from an hour or two in the indoor). So that might be a consideration for your guy.

My normal solution for the ones that move around in cross ties is just to calmly return them to their original position every time they move. It gets really boring really fast. The key is just to do this is a low key manner, you can’t be at all abrupt or stern. It’s a very clam & matter of fact approach. They move their hindquarters to the right, you gently ask them to move their hindquarters back to the left. It’s ok if they over compensate at first. Praise them anyway. You’re rewarding the try that they gave you. Eventually they figure out that moving means they’re going to have to move right back and they decide it’s just easier to stand. My mare has gotten to the point where I can be all the way down by the tackroom, and if she moves all I have to do is look at her and she’ll correct herself. I also make the crossties a very positive place to be…lots of cookies and scritches!

Best of luck with your guy! I’m enjoying working with the arabs and figuring out how their minds work.

[ladymcts]

So … lemme ask you this, where is it written that the first thing you must do is tie the horse up? I mean at his age and what you’ve written, he may not settle down completely. However I would at least give it a try this way … bring him in, throw a lunge line on him, and put him to work for a little. Then go tie him and ask him to stand nicely. If he doesn’t stand nicely, go back to lunging.

If you really really want him calmer on the ties, then make that your lesson for a few visits, your goal being him acting calmer on ties, and when he does, reward the heck out of him. Riding isn’t always the most important training object of day.

[Cindyg]

Can you leave him loose in the cross tie with the rope draped over your arm or someone else holding him? Could that be a step in desensitizing him?

Can you stand in there feeding him treats?

I wonder if he fell or slipped (or just got scared) in a cross tie with his head restrained somewhere in his life.

[red_mares]

This horse is 18 & has been turned out for a few years. I don’t think he’s going to “chill” like you want, ever.

Have you talked to those who had him before you got him? I have a feeling he didn’t stand then.

Not all horses stand like a statue when tied. My old show horse moved CONSTANTLY. One step forward, two steps back, two steps forward. Never stood, except for the day she died (her leg was broke, she didn’t have much choice) She wasn’t scared or nervous or reactive, she just wanted to Go.

If she wasn’t in constant work, I usually lunged her before throwing a leg over. When she was driven, it took the first 1/8 - 1/4 mile to get her in hand. You just had to let her go, then bring her back. If held back, she’d be up in the air like a Hackney Pony.

[arabiansrock]

Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions.

Yes I have had show arabs before. He is our 3 rd. But the barn I am at, and the reason I am there, is that show horses are treated like horses. They don’t get bubble wrapped and locked in. But I suspect he was in one of those bubble wrap, no turn out, only comes out to be worked programs.

I have spoken to previous owner., they had no idea if he tied or not, he was “in training”, have me the name of their trainer, I emailed her, but got no response. It would have been nice if she would have at least responded and said sorry it was 7 years ago, I don’t remember that horse. But, oh well.

so the concensus seems to be he is what he is, enjoy him and don’t worry if he doesn’t tie perfectly. So I guess I will chill and just enjoy any small progress he makes in relaxing prior to work.

thanks again

[Beverley]

Here is a simple solution that has worked for me for oh, over 20 years. Affix the cross ties to the top ring of the halter cheek piece, instead of the noseband ring we are all used to using. I started this with my antsy OTTB- instant transformation to plow horse mode. And I do it with everything I put on the cross ties. In the very few instances where they’ve been startled and jumped back, as soon as they hit the pressure point, which in this case is the crownpiece, they cease to move, and then come on back forward.

[Sansena]

I’ll share my experiences and you can pick what is/isn’t relevant to your situation.

M was a horse who could never be ‘tied’. When tacking for lessons, we’d attach the X ties to each other in front of him and loosely tie his lead rope to the joined X ties. Worked fairly well so long as nobody went past him there. He’ occasionally blow and leave the barn but it was usually justified for him.

M also couldn’t stand being restrained in any fashion for body clipping, ear trims, mane pulls. M was a QH, and I knew a tad 'bout that discipline. So on a hoot for an ear trim/ mane pulling session, I put him in the aisle, closed the barn doors behind him and kept the other end open so he could see. I dropped the rope, fully expecting him to stand as in ground tied. It worked like a charm. I was done in 10m and was asked if I had come back to get drugs. Poor thing had been wrestled for anything more than a quick curry and I believe that added to his nervousness. When he leaned away, I just hooked his dangling lead under my elbow to guide him back to center. No drama, no ear twisting, just businesslike and uneventful.

In so far as actively training him to focus, I’m going to respectfully say that ‘bopping’ him on the nose is exactly the wrong thing to pursue. Case in point him raising his head even higher. Instead, I’m going to suggest you teach him “Head Down”. You apply pressure to his poll by way of the halter’s crown piece and reward with a rub and a coo at the first nuance of him dropping his head. Continue until you can get him to “head down” all the way with his nose on the ground.

My reason for mentioning this is physiological response of the horse: Anxiety = head up. Calm = head down. So, you try to impact his ‘thinking’ by changing his head position and reward the down, which coincidentally gets him to focus. Can’t really by Mr. Snoopster if his nose is in the dirt.

Do NOT hand treat this horse in response to trying to get him to focus. Because you’ll have a ping-pong pony bouncing around in hand AND simultaneously mugging you for treats. Ask me how I know.

These suggestions may work for you or not. Figured I’d put it out there… Good luck

[gloriginger]

Things like a little bop when he acts up - or “lunging/tying rinse repeat” might work for some horses, but not for sensitive hyper alert arabs. (bopping will just escalate, lunging/tying works on the premise that the horse will get tired and prefer to rest—not so with these arabs…unless you want to make a three day project of it- think endurance horse.)

Try this, cross tie him, but leave the lead rope on the halter and put it over his shoulder (obviously don’t walk away with it like this).

When he gets looky, paws etc. softy pull the lead toward you so you his head back to you- stroke his neck or withers. Tell him through soft voices, soft strokes, this is the good place to be. Keep correcting him, but remain soft. When he is moving, stop all grooming until he rests. You really can’t be rough with these horses, even simple things that you think might not think to be rough- can be for them. They need to be finessed, treated with kindness and work best on praise for what is right, ignoring what is wrong. atleast you have a gelding-they are a little more low key than the mares!

[arabiansrock]

Beverly - interesting, will have to try that, I wonder if it distributes pressure differently over the head?

Sansena - yes! we do lots of head down work, frustrating part is it just pops right back up, but patience, rinse and repeat right? I body clipped him similar to how you describe, other than when I hit ticklish spots he was an angel. he just doesn’t seem comfortable with confinement.

Gloriginger - you are totally right, if you try the lunge, tie, lunge tie, until tired all you will end up with is a VERY fit horse. I do always keep the lead on just in case we have to pull the quick releases to let him loose, I want a way to catch him, and I typically do exactly as you describe. only time I get a little strong with him is if he moves into my space because he want to look around, he will get a slap (not hard but enough that he can register it) on the offending body part, then told where to put his feet again. It s just somedays I just don’t have the patience for it and I would really like to be able to just hang out with him sometimes and groom and relax, not have to have every visit involve work just to settle him down.

He does love to just hang out with me when I sit on the bench and watch riders in the arena, he will snuffle the cat in my lap, snuffle me, or recently, he belly up to the arena rail and hung his head in to watch the other horses. He pretty clearly was telling me he wanted to be in there working too. He just loves having a job.

Thanks again everyone, I have some new ideas to try, and some reinforcement that was I was doing wasn’t wrong, just that at this age, this may be what he is and I will have to learn to work around it.