The title says it all… I’m trying to teach a little pony a few useful tricks… and less useful ones just to get him using that thinking side of his brain. But I don’t particularly like the idea of making him want to for the sake of treats. Because I want him to want to do it regardless of if i have treats. I just barely started on “bow” (like one 15 minute session) when I realized that I did NOT want to be using treats as often as I was, I want to be a leader, not a food dispenser. But most tutorials use clickers and treats to teach things like bow and to “touch” item with their nose. Can someone give me ideas or even their own suggestions from experience teaching without food?
You can probably do it but it would be extremely difficult. The way most dog trainers do it is to start with food rewards and then gradually replace the food with praise once the behavior is established and on cue. I think this would be harder to do with horses as they don’t seem to respond to praise as well as dogs. I don’t see a problem with using treats as a reward. You are making him work for the treats so you are still the leader.
A marker doesn’t have to be a clicker. The reward doesn’t have to be food.
The basic principle of positive reinforcement training is you mark correct behaviour and then reward it though.
Food is not bribery it is reinforcement or a form of pay.
Would you work without pay?
[QUOTE=haybaby15;8389138]
The title says it all… I’m trying to teach a little pony a few useful tricks… and less useful ones just to get him using that thinking side of his brain. But I don’t particularly like the idea of making him want to for the sake of treats. Because I want him to want to do it regardless of if i have treats. I just barely started on “bow” (like one 15 minute session) when I realized that I did NOT want to be using treats as often as I was, I want to be a leader, not a food dispenser. But most tutorials use clickers and treats to teach things like bow and to “touch” item with their nose. Can someone give me ideas or even their own suggestions from experience teaching without food?[/QUOTE]
To use food for training is one very valid form of learning theory.
You do have to learn yourself how to use it properly, or you do become a food dispenser, not a trainer with a goal in mind.
Look up operant conditioning, also called “clicker training”, although it is not about the clicker or the food if/when any is used.
It will open a whole new big world of training for you, that works on any animal, including the human animal.
Everyone that starts to train seriously on their own, without instruction, may go thru the same problem you have, they don’t understand how to use food to motivate/reward properly and so decided it is not working for them.
Best if you find a trainer near you that can help you and start with books and videos.
Our dog club has been using clicker training for some of our classes for decades and it is amazing what all you can teach with it.
A good way to learn would be to see if you have one such place with dog classes where you could learn and then use what you learn to teach your horses, if you don’t have a horse trainer where you are familiar with it.
The reason most use a clicker and treats for this sort of thing is because it works. Works so well they can get killer whales to perform, “untrainable” animals to do movie tricks. Use tiny,tiny treats often. As you progress the treats come out less often as the animal starts to learn sequences of tricks get the treats. If piny can be motivated with a game or scratches that would work,too. I use tugging for one of my dogs but still treat for things that require higher levels of reward like new or difficult stuff.
You can use something other than a clicker,such as a tongue click or “yes!”.
[QUOTE=brody;8389149]
A marker doesn’t have to be a clicker. The reward doesn’t have to be food.
The basic principle of positive reinforcement training is you mark correct behaviour and then reward it though.
Food is not bribery it is reinforcement or a form of pay.
Would you work without pay?[/QUOTE]
Yes. If you can find a reward that your horse would work for, you don’t need to use food, and you can mark the behavior with your voice.
I’ll be curious to hear what rewards a horse will work for, other than food. 
I know dogs will often work for praise or the opportunity to play with a toy. Don’t really see my horses doing that though.
Good training isn’t about domination, it is about communication and relationship.
As others have said, there must be reward. Food rewards are a great way to train tricks and can be eventually be phased out if needed, but many excellent trainers never phase it out.
To be a good leader, one must the sort of leader an animal wants to follow.
And you must be absolutely clear and consistent with cues.
[QUOTE=haybaby15;8389138]
But I don’t particularly like the idea of making him want to for the sake of treats. Because I want him to want to do it regardless of if i have treats. [/QUOTE]
You do this by phasing out treats as the training progresses. When you start you give him a treat every time. Then every three times. Then every five. Then maybe he doesn’t get treats at all, and depending on the behavior gets a correction if he doesn’t perform the requested behavior (though I dunno if I’d go so far for tricks, and for my horse I didn’t need to). You need to use the food to imprint the behavior, then wean off the food.
With my experience with my horse, teaching a horse basic behaviors like bow, turn around, back up, stand beside me, stay, etc, you can use the exact same rationale you would use when training a dog. “Do thing. Good!” Give cookie. You can use whatever word you want for your marker, I personally hate clickers. But personally I have noticed no difference between training a horse and a dog to do basic behaviors on command.
My boy knows tons of tricks and is pretty comparable to a dog in his handling in some ways. I do not put up with any bullshit and will swat his shoulder/correct him on the lead line for goofing off and not paying attention to me, but most of his tricks were taught with food bribery which he no longer needs in order to perform.
The clicker noise/food reward is so ingrained in my dog after puppy class that it is an instant recall from whatever he is doing if he hears it. it works so well, it’s scary.
Animal brains are actually pretty simple when it comes to associating a noise with a positive reward. Animals can go on to learn some pretty sophisticated communication techniques, but clicker training is solid if you do it correctly.
If you think food is bribery, you have zero concept of positive operant training.
I’ve used clicker work with dogs, cats, budgies, and horses. Ponies are smart, they can do it easily.
Matter of getting a trainer who knows what s/he is doing.
Get educated and there is success. Nota bene: bribery is when you you are doing is a$$ backwards.
OP, I would highly recommend getting Karen Pryor’s book, Don’t Shoot the Dog. Its kind of the bible of clicker training. I’m considering using a clicker with my new made. She has an aversion to the bit so I’m thinking about using a clicker to teach her to take the bit.
The Maddens used clicker training to get Judgment to jump the water.
Then again, they probably understood the difference between bribery (food is offered before performance) and reward (food is offered after performance).
[QUOTE=Bluey;8389167]
To use food for training is one very valid form of learning theory.
You do have to learn yourself how to use it properly, or you do become a food dispenser, not a trainer with a goal in mind.
Look up operant conditioning, also called “clicker training”, although it is not about the clicker or the food if/when any is used.
It will open a whole new big world of training for you, that works on any animal, including the human animal.
Everyone that starts to train seriously on their own, without instruction, may go thru the same problem you have, they don’t understand how to use food to motivate/reward properly and so decided it is not working for them.
Best if you find a trainer near you that can help you and start with books and videos.
Our dog club has been using clicker training for some of our classes for decades and it is amazing what all you can teach with it.
A good way to learn would be to see if you have one such place with dog classes where you could learn and then use what you learn to teach your horses, if you don’t have a horse trainer where you are familiar with it.[/QUOTE]
yes. totally this! I “trained” little mule Simon who would not allow anyone to put a halter on, or really do anything with him. I used my voice as the clicker - there is a word cue that he knows, and when I say it, he touches what ever I have in my hand with his nose - halter flymask, leadline, whatever - and (at the beginning) he got a treat. Yes, reinforced every time at first, then backed off, then variable reinforcement and now he’ll just do it and you can halter him, put on his fly mask, spray him or whatever and he’s fine. He loves treats but he does have to work for them in some manner.
It was pretty easy and well worth it - he is much much easier to work with! If I had time I’d teach him more stuff because it works so well! It is exactly what wthey use with dogs. Actually my cats respond as well - I say one word and they know it means a tiny taste of something they love and they come running. Very handy when I can’t find them
[QUOTE=wireweiners;8389145]
You can probably do it but it would be extremely difficult. .[/QUOTE]
just get a Morgan horse… training them to do things is no problem… their ears work at distances beyond expectations… they can hear the unwrapping of a peppermint at 1,000 feet
I could find my horse at shows where there where 1500 head just by calling her name… she would respond and I just walked to her stall.
