..tell me about cryptorchid "non-gelding"?...

[Crosswinds_Rescue]

So…the young man that folks here were so kind to help me understand his markings, yep, you guessed it. we are 95% sure he is a crypt, even have a 4th-hand “take it with a truckload of salt” version of a story that the vet removed the right,then spent over 90 minutes “digging and hunting” and ‘never found’ the left sac or its contents and “assumed he just didn’t have one”… (ah the joy of stories you here)

Anyway, we are awaiting a testosterone level test on him. But I’d like to get as much understanding as I can about the situation in a variety of ways…

1. what, if any, risks are there to him remaining with one stuck up abdominal as my vet says is almost assuredly the case, should he not have the surgery in the near future?
2. what is the likelihood he can successfully cover a mare, should he manage to get out of my quarantine and into my main pasture with 15 rescue mares?
3. what are the main concerns about doing a crypt surgery, properly, using the assumption that someone did, actually, try to locate the left one and could not do so?
4. what, if any, residual issues relating to studdish behaviors is he more or less likely to have than any other 5 year old who may or may not have bred previously?

Anything fokls can share, articles to read, first-hand accounts, etc. will be most appreciated.

(moderators if i’m in the wrong forum, i apologize. i assume the breeding population are the folks most likely able to give me the most information on what may be a “one side loaded” breeding stallion…):no::sadsmile:

[vineyridge]

gelded cryptorchids are usually infertile, as the body temperature is too high for viable sperm in the retained testicle. At least, that’s the received wisdom that is spouted.

If he isn’t a handful, you probably wouldn’t be doing either him or mares any harm by not having the operation done in the foreseeable future.

[rideagoldenpony]

A good vet will never remove a visible testicle and leave the other one missing inside the animal somewhere. A vet should always pursue the “hard to get” one first, and if unable to remove that one, then leaves the other there.

I did know a lady years ago that did a lot of horse trading. She made a trade with another horse trader for a painted up Arab cross gelding. I recall that she’d had him about a week, when VOILA! He suddenly dropped what must have been a missing testicle. If I remember correctly, he was a 3 year old. She thought she was getting a gelding. Apparently he was only “half gelded”.

The summer I was 11 I saved up and bought a $50 pony. I had saved up $30 and my mom loaned me the other $20. Just as I was about to complete the transaction, my mother noted that he was not a gelding, but instead was a stallion. He was quiet enough that I bought him anyway, planning to geld him.

The vets we used were a husband and wife team, FRESH FRESH FRESH out of vet school. They went to geld him and discovered only one testicle. They called their professor from vet school, they were up to their elbows digging around looking for it… and never did find it. They DID remove the other one, however. (I was 11, I didn’t know any better – and my parents were definitely not horse people.)

They wrote me a long letter to keep with the pony that described what had happened and the surgery, etc. I did keep the letter, but I kept the pony until he died a few years ago. He never had ANY stallion behavior, so I have always wondered if it really was just floating around in his abdomen somewhere, or if the one that was removed when I bought him was one that had been previously retained!! It remains a mystery…

[dr_j]

First and foremost… I love the title of your post “crypt orchid”. I had to read it twice… I thought we may be talking about some exotic flower to take to the graveyard! LOL

You are reaping the rewards of a vet breaking that cardinal rule of NEVER removing the only visible testicle.

To answer your question- it’s very unlikely if not removed, the other one ( almost always the left) is “there” somewhere. If not in the inguinal region ( a high flanker) then in the abdomen. Most high flankers can be located so it’s most likely in the abdomen.

A testicle in the abdomen is more likely to become an issue later- testicular tumors etc.
An abdominal testicle often will produce less testosterone/therefore less sperm than one in the proper place due to the temp inside the abdomen BUT that doesn’t mean it’s not possible to have just as much as normal. There will always be the possibility of impregnanting a mare and/or stallion behavior.

The risks to locating the testicle are going to be the same as any other routine abdominal procedure.

If you have it removed you can expect him to act like a normal gelding.

I would disagree with the “cryptorchid gelding” terminology - it would be an oxymoron to me… a gelding has NO testicles regardless of location. A cryptorchid still has testicles somewhere… even if you can’t see them. A horse with a testicle present- even in the abdomen should still be considered a stud.

[Callaway]

I’m also surprised that the vet did not palpate both testicles before he made his incision. Vets usually will not remove just one testicle because removing one testicle does not make a gelding, as stated above.

I only know of one horse that this has happened to, and he gave his amateur owner hell. He was so nice to ride, but he acted like a stallion and was entirely too much for her to handle. He ended up hurting her because she was so afraid to get the surgery to remove the testicle that never descended.

It’s not very complicated to get the testicle removed. My friend had it done twice, and I think it cost around $1500 or so at the vet clinic. Both of her boys healed really well and turned out to be wonderful geldings.

[classicsporthorses]

I have one, he’s a coming 2 year old. Our vet thought she had in fact felt the other testicle but after she made the incision and hunted around it was in fact a large fat pad and not the missing testicle.

We are waiting this summer to see if it drops. So now we call John Henry (the colt) a “half a gelding”.

He’s well behaved and in with a band of 2 year old geldings. If his other testicle does not drop then we’ll ship him off and get the it removed with a more invasive procedure.

[Crosswinds_Rescue]

I’m sorry, do I have the term wrong? is it all one word? cryptorchid?

This boy’s story makes no sense on every level. the more people we speak with who were supposedly involved, the less they make sense. i’m not sure who he really is or where he’s really been but the story is a mess, and we’re trying to piece it together.

He is VERY studdish. Um, how do I say this and keep it PG? he extends and firms VERY well if he sees a mare walk close, but he does not, er, exercise himself, even in a mare’s presence (obviously have not let him get close or touch any of our mares, but one walking by his paddock or working in the indoor roundpen where he can see her).

We have been told the vet spent over 90 minutes “searching” for the left but could not find it.

Unfortunately, for us, a $1500 surgery isn’t “inexpensive”. It’s a big deal. Do we have a safety net fund for things like this? of course. Unfortunately, we’ve got a “mystery lameness” case right now who has been happily burning through the emergency vet bill funds.

probably a silly question – could the university do an ultrasound and FIND the 2nd one? to be sure they would be able to get it prior to paying to lay him down etc?

i’m quite sure the 2nd is still up there, based upon his studdish behavior.

we even suspect it could be that a “low budget” vet may hve simply snipped the easy one so one of his former owners could sell him as a gelding without the time and expense of doing the crypt surgery.

one more thought - if a testosterone test shows his levels as low (which i don’t expect), would that be a reasonable indicator that he is unlikely to be able to successfully reproduce? obviously, we don’t plan to pasture him with mares based upon that simple ‘tidbit’ of information!! but we always try to know what worse case might be, and if he manages to vault over or through 7’ tall wood fencing, i want to know how much risk i have of him actually covering a mare (let alone already knowing the risk to the only gelding on the property – this one is not only lame, he is stupid enough to fight…)

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;4950477]
A good vet will never remove a visible testicle and leave the other one missing inside the animal somewhere. A vet should always pursue the “hard to get” one first, and if unable to remove that one, then leaves the other there.[/QUOTE]

This ^^^

I am the reluctant owner of a crypt. I have two quotes for the surgery. One is $1500, and the other is $2000-2500. Like you, that’s a big deal to me. But the vet has laid the colt down and done the digging, and the second one isn’t there.

The clinics actually asked if the first vet removed the visible one, and when I said “no” the reply was “good vet, that’s the ethical way to do it.”

So, he will have to be ultra sounded to locate the retained one and have it removed. It is very rare for them to be a “monorchid” (naturally having only one). The other one is in there.

And in my case, the retained one is making my colt uncomfortable. He reaches for his flank now and then. I don’t want him to become a self mutilator, so we have to get the second one out of there.

Of course, a friend of mine buys colts from a farm who does their own castrations. She’s gotten two crypts masquerading as geldings from them. Some people just aren’t careful. Or ethical.

[leilatigress]

My one and only experience with a crypt was a horrid thing that looked like a million dollar horse but was completely unsafe around mares. The Barn Owners did mixed turn out and the boy came in at the same time we did. He started acting like a stud towards my then 24 y/o mare and dad called him a proud cut and said to stay away from him at all costs. Dad did buy that thing and had the vet come out and he was indeed a crypt. His one testicle had been removed but with a little hunting the other one was found and removed as well. He was safe finally after a few months but he scared the hell out of me to the point I was scared of stallions for a while. I did get over that fear quickly though with the intro of Snowy River a missouri foxtrotter that was the sweetest stud I ever met.

My advice is to treat him like the green unmannerly stud he thinks he is. If he does manage to cover your mares and each crypto is a different case I would still worry they might get pregnant.

[Crosswinds_Rescue]

Thanks, Lei.
A lifetime ago i had the pleasure of handling an incredibly well mannered breeding stallion named Chubby Baretta. Literally, as a 16 year old sprite who couldnt hit 100 lbs in full show gear, I showed this handsome gentleman in all types of classes without the slightest hint of concern that he would misbehave. He even knew “put it away”, whispered ever so softly, should he forget for a moment what his work was. He also knew, when his owner came with a stud chain in hand that it was time, well, to be a stud. He still was reasonably well mannered but understandably more excited. for her own mares, she simply allowed him to pasture breed. for the rare client, she managed him in 2 stud chains for the mare’s safety but never had any need to use them, at least that I knew.

So i know how a proper stud should behave. and i know this boy has no idea what that is, at least currently. and his both aggressive and exceptionally cunning behavior toward the vet and her needle has made our lead volunteers understand how dangerous he could be in the wrong situation, which was a key lesson for them to learn. Now it is time to get him on the right track, and to figure out how to deal with the crypt situation as reasonably as possible…sigh.

[Cloverbarley]

I agree with the others who say a decent vet will absolutely not remove a single dropped testicle.

I had a cryptorchid from birth. At 6 months old he had 2 but when I went to have him gelded at 14 months old he only had 1. So I knew for sure that there was another one hiding somewhere. I left him till he was 2 and a half in case the hiding one dropped but it didn’t so I sent him off to horsepital and had it retrieved. The regular costs for this surgery is $1,500 however my vet charged me half price as I am deemed a good customer. My lad was a nice boy, very gentle and well behaved at all times, never showed any unruly stallion behavior and is still one of the sweetest boys you’ll come across now.

If you have good history with your vet can you not ask for a reduction in price or if you don’t have the money upfront could you pay in installments? I didn’t ask my vet for a reduction as I knew the price and was happy with that amount - the reduction was offered to me for no reason apparent to me but of course I accepted it graciously.

[luvs2ridewbs]

Is this a rescue horse? Maybe you could do some fundraising for the surgery costs?

[JenRose]

Yes…BAD VET for removing the right!!! :mad:

I am on the Board of Directors for a local animal welfare org. We work to help the animals (primarily dogs and cats) at our Parish’s high kill public pound.

In 2009, 4 horses were seized for cruelty and abandonment. They were awarded to the Parish and my group pulled them for rescue (as opposed to them going to the local sale barn and being picked up for $20 by the kill buyer).

Anyway…

This group was all boys and of course all “in tact”. The oldest was a 12 year old Paint stud. Had vet out to pull Coggins, vaccinate and castrate. Learned this guy was a uni-lateral cryptorchid. Niiiiice! My horse rescue budget is practically zero. The rescue we found for these guys would/could only take them if they were castrated, healthy, etc. Desperate and out of options, I called the LSU vet school and asked if they would take Ranger on as a teaching case. They agreed!!! Instead of a $1500 surgery, we paid around $200.

I was worried because at the time of surgery, Ranger weighed 650 lbs. Should likely weigh in at 900++. Everything went fine and he is now in training at the rescue. The retained testicle was found in his abdomen. The rescue reports that he is a bit studdy still (almost 1 year post surgery) but I am not sure if it is related to his age when castrated, being a crypt or just his personality.

Pics - Ranger is the Paint. There are a few pics of the surgery on page 2 of the album.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8148&id=1750429954&l=51128081a3

[Crosswinds_Rescue]

Sadly, our regular vet doesn’t have a surgical, it will need to be done at U of I, almost certainly, and they COULD use it as a teaching case – if I can wait until about February. As that’s when tey have juniors doing castrations at essentially no charge. That’s a long wait.

Yes, we can fundraise for the surgery, and likely will have to do so. Unfortunately, last year and this in particular, the response to those types of funding requests have been poor to nonexistent.

I need to chase a few other ghosts on this boy first, and then figure out what we do from here and what the actual cost is going to be for U of I to do the crypt…

[BC5098]

I think that there are some geldings who act like stallions, even if they are in fact true geldings. I had an imported Westfalen gelding - who was very stallion like. It was not apparent how stallion like he was - he lived in a show barn, and was not turned out with other horses, and behaved himself in the arena while riding - but when I retired him and brought him home, he jumped the fence and bred my daughters pony mare. I am a breeder - and I recogonize a good cover when I see it - and this was the full meal deal.

I called my vet - who looked at the horse - and tested the hormone levels - and we talked at length about if, in fact, he was a gelding. Our assumption was that the Germans - this horse was an unapproved stallion candidate - would not look at a stallion candidate without two testicles, and would not do a partial gelding. He was not imported until he was 9 -so I doubt strongly that someone tried to 1/2 geld him, and then dump him overseas. Medically - there was no obvious reason for his behavior.

The solutions presented me - drug him, with regumate or some other hormone regime. Or treat him like a stallion. I opted to treat him like a stallion, and gave him to another breeder with a bigger farm, to use as a teaser.

I am guessing that this is not all that common, but it does happen.

[Crosswinds_Rescue]

We generally try to avoid having a gelding who was ever allowed to breed, because we have had 2 who were gelded after successfully covering mares, and both were still exceptionally aggressive and “bad studdish”, and regumate and some other attempts made little to no effect on their becoming good citizens. I’m worried but hopeful that won’t be the case for Jack.