Tell me about retained testicle in puppies.

[Kyzteke]

A friend of mine breeds Shih-Tzus. She was telling me that the first litter produced by her bitch and an outside male contained 5 males…3 of which had retained testicles at 6 months of age.

She is mystified because the sire has 2, both of which (she says) are very large.

When I did some research, it seemed that most vets think it is an X-linked, autosomal recessive trait, which (if I understand correctly) means both parents can be carriers, even if they themselves are unaffected.

So, using a Punnett Square, how does a person figure out the % of animals in a LITTER who are likely to be affected? I know how to do it with a single produce (like a foal or a human baby), but can you use it for multiples?

And for all of you experienced breeders out there, I’d love to hear your experience with this condition.

The articles I’ve read seem to be more certain (although not 100%) of the source than, say in horses…where there really is alot more speculation of if the condition is genetic.

I know if I bought one of my friend’s expensive puppies only to find out I needed to have major surgery on it just to have it neutered, I’d be pretty ticked off…

[Horsegal984]

The Punnett square is the same, each box represents a percentage. So for a litter you multiply number of pups in the litter (or expected pups) by 25% dominant (X/X), 50% carriers(X/x) and 25% recessive (x/x).

Since only the bitch would pass any X chromosome linked traits to male pups then it does skew the square a little bit and it’s more important to know the bitch’s status. Seeing as how half the litter was affected I would be very concerned that the bitch is at least Xx and quite possibly xx.

Do either the bitch or the stud have other litters? Were any of those pups affected? Personally I wouldn’t breed this bitch again as 3/5 is pretty strong evidence she has some undesirable traits along. Certainly I wouldn’t use this stud with her again if they did want to try another litter.

[arapaloosa_lady]

Does she know when the sire’s testicles descended? If they took an abnormally long time to descend, then he’s considered cryptorchid for genetic purposes insofar as he’s going to pass down that trait.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7846935]
I know if I bought one of my friend’s expensive puppies only to find out I needed to have major surgery on it just to have it neutered, I’d be pretty ticked off…[/QUOTE]

Even more distressing would be if you bought the puppy as a show prospect and it was ineligible by being cryptorchid. There is a reason dogs have to be correctly intact to show, since the point is to demonstrate breeding soundness.

I don’t know enough about the genetic end of this, but I agree with the previous post – when did the sire’s testicles descend (and is she sure they really did? Just because a dog is cryptorchid doesn’t make it sterile - just not breeding quality).

[Wellspotted]

I know if I bought one of my friend’s expensive puppies only to find out I needed to have major surgery on it just to have it neutered, I’d be pretty ticked off…

Presumably you’d notice the lack of descended testicles before forking out good money for the pup!

And if a cryptorchid isn’t sterile, why isn’t he considered breeding quality? Just curious.

[hoopoe]

http://caninegeneticreserve.com/documents/articles/Cryptorchidism_in_dogs_-_how_why_and_what_to_do_about_it.pdf

this is a good overview

short answer is that undescended is often associated with other defects

could the stud dog have had a nuticle implant?

[mommy_peanut]

[QUOTE=arapaloosa_lady;7847057]
Does she know when the sire’s testicles descended? If they took an abnormally long time to descend, then he’s considered cryptorchid for genetic purposes insofar as he’s going to pass down that trait.[/QUOTE]

Where did you come up with that info? Do you have a study or facts to actually back that up?
Just curious, as I’ve never heard such a statement from any breeder or even any of the reproductive specialist vets I’ve worked with over the years.

While genetics can play part in what causes cryptorchidism, it is not always the case.
I would think that genetics actually plays less of a part in it than currently believed. After talking to vets that do 100’s of neuters each year, they’ve said that the most common reason for retained testicles was twisted, tangled or wrapped cords, preventing the testicle from descending. so that’s not genetic.

Here are a few articles: http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/reproductive/c_multi_cryptorchidism

http://www.akc.org/enewsletter/akc_breeder/2014/09_gazette.pdf

http://www.dogstuff.info/cryptorchidism.html

http://www6.svsu.edu/~gmlange/461lc4.pdf

[DoubleClick]

I just attended a dog breeding seminar put on by my repro vet last weekend, and the speaker, Carmen Battaglia, said that in his years of speaking to dog breeders, he has noticed an overwhelming trend: woman breeders tend to have retained testicles in their litters at a far greater rate then men (he actually used to poll his audiences and track the data). The theory he came up with is that some women breeders, due to hand size, nails, or whatever, tend to look for testicles by grasping with the thumb and forefinger, and they check for testicles earlier and more often. Men, on the other had, are a little gentler when it comes to testicles and are more hands-off. So, his thought is that breeders are sometimes bruising tiny testicles, causing for them to be drawn up into the body to heal, and when they go to re-descend, it’s too late and the inguinal ring has closed.

He’s had many breeders try the hands off approach in subsequent litters, and they’ve reported back with drastically fewer undescended testicles.

I don’t know if this is all coincidence and has no merit, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Wellspotted;7847569]
Presumably you’d notice the lack of descended testicles before forking out good money for the pup!

And if a cryptorchid isn’t sterile, why isn’t he considered breeding quality? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

Well, testicles on an 8 week old Shih Tzu would be pretty darn tiny…not sure you could always be positive that they are both there at 8 weeks. And it’s definitely not impossible for them to descend later than 8 weeks and still be totally normal. My breeder has the vet confirm two testicles at the puppy wellness visit, but if only one was felt it wouldn’t necessarily be considered cryptorchid at that age.

I guess the reason they are not breeding quality is because they have an obvious defect that requires correction. I don’t know whether or not there is a genetic component…but in general, a breeding dog should not need surgical correction of any sort.

(That said, it’s not unheard of for people to correct cryptorchidism and implant a fake testicle – “neuticals” makes them for dogs and cats. It is illegal, of course, but only illegal to show them in a regular class.)

[Kyzteke]

Haven’t had computer access for afew days so wasn’t able to check this thread. Lots of interesting info.

The male is owned by a friend of my friend. She’s had this dog his whole life and actually got him to breed. I don’t know if they checked him at 8 wks or not, but it sounds like it was pretty early on. The male dog was 1 yr or even alittle less when he bred my friend’s bitch (don’t shoot the messenger!).

Regarding the genetics: a male has one X & one Y, correct? So am I correct in assuming that either one or BOTH the male & the female could be carriers, right? If this trait is indeed X-lined, however.

My friend’s vet is telling her that even at 6 mos there is a chance they might still distend (in the pup whose testicles are below the inguinal ring; the 2 other pups’ testes are apparently still up in the abdomen); my research says that’s nonsense. If they aren’t down by 6-12 wks they chances of them descending is very, VERY low.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=mommy peanut;7847653]
Where did you come up with that info? Do you have a study or facts to actually back that up?
Just curious, as I’ve never heard such a statement from any breeder or even any of the reproductive specialist vets I’ve worked with over the years.

While genetics can play part in what causes cryptorchidism, it is not always the case.
I would think that genetics actually plays less of a part in it than currently believed. After talking to vets that do 100’s of neuters each year, they’ve said that the most common reason for retained testicles was twisted, tangled or wrapped cords, preventing the testicle from descending. so that’s not genetic.

Here are a few articles: http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/reproductive/c_multi_cryptorchidism

http://www.akc.org/enewsletter/akc_breeder/2014/09_gazette.pdf

http://www.dogstuff.info/cryptorchidism.html

http://www6.svsu.edu/~gmlange/461lc4.pdf[/QUOTE]

I haven’t had the time to read all the articles, but if 3 o/o 5 pups in one litter has the same issue, the most likely cause IS genetics. Doesn’t mean there can’t be another cause…the bitch could have been exposed to some sort of toxic agent, I suppose.

But I would think in this case genetics are the most likely. But even my research states they aren’t positive either way in dogs.

Horses either (which I am more familiar with).

[Houndhill]

I agree, it is very unlikely they will come down at six months. I have had one descend, to my great relief, at 16 weeks, I was holding my breath on that one! It has been my experience that Sighthounds tend to descend a little later. It seems it is always the best male in the litter! I swear, teeth and testicles…

But I can’t imagine buying or selling as show quality any puppy with just one (or none), I would certainly wait.

Not sure if I’m buying Carmen’s theory that women breeders tend to handle testicles more frequently or more roughly. I am very gentle, I was taught to hold the puppy upright and sort of gently stroke downward.

[jetsmom]

I always thought that you need to neuter a dog with an undescended testicle, because they are at high risk of testicular cancer.
My Horse was a crypt when I got him at 2 1/2 yrs old, and was gelded. I was told that not gelding could actually be dangerous because depending upon where the other testicle was, it could be “squished”/crimped during exertion, causing excruciating pain. So you wouldn’t want to be going over a jump and have that happen. Not sure how true that was, but it made sense at the time. But I was going to geld him regardless.

[Bells]

We have a Westie that I brought in for neutering at 6 months w/an undescended testicle. We discussed it before hand and after the surgery, Vet said that they were successful and got both testacies.

Well about 2 weeks later I was looking at him and noticed a lump. hmmm thought maybe he had some swelling from the operation. But when I felt it I was very, very sure it was a testicle. Brought him back, unfortunately a vet was filling in and she was sure it wasn’t a testicle so I allowed her to do a thin needle aspiration (my poor boy came back looking shocked!). She sent me home w/antibiotics and instructions to ice him all weekend (um fun not). I brought him back in on Monday and yeah, what do you know his testicle had descended and they had not removed it.

The partner of the vet that performed the original neuter was very apologetic and honest about it (yeah!) - said that the vet that did the surgery had been operating probably not enough sleep. They redid the surgery for free and refunded the money spent w/the visiting vet. I was pissed but because they were honest about it and were usually quite good, I do still use the practice.

Long story but yes a testicle can descend at 6 months.

[Doctracy]

I’ve had testicles on lab puppies descend at six months and beyond. I’d gently find the testicle if you can and put very gentle traction on it for a few seconds. 3-4 times a day.
There is also some evidence that HCG might work but I’ve never tried it, never had the need.

[Houndhill]

So, I am not sure I’m understanding this, Bells. Did the vet not palpate two descended testicles prior to sugery? I’m guessing not. But vet thought he removed two testicles? But later, it was found the vet had only removed one, and there was another that had not been removed?

Yes, that is a very unusual circumstance!

[Ghazzu]

@Kyzteke;7846935

When I did some research, it seemed that most vets think it is an X-linked, autosomal recessive trait, which (if I understand correctly) means both parents can be carriers, even if they themselves are unaffected.

X-linked and autosomal are mutually exclusive, by definition.

[mommy_peanut]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7849658]
I haven’t had the time to read all the articles, but if 3 o/o 5 pups in one litter has the same issue, the most likely cause IS genetics. Doesn’t mean there can’t be another cause…the bitch could have been exposed to some sort of toxic agent, I suppose.

But I would think in this case genetics are the most likely. But even my research states they aren’t positive either way in dogs.

Horses either (which I am more familiar with).[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree that if 2 or more pups o/o the same litter have the same issue, chances are that it’s caused by genetics(in that case).
I just think the genetic link to it, is much more complex than some believe.

[Bells]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7850711]
So, I am not sure I’m understanding this, Bells. Did the vet not palpate two descended testicles prior to sugery? I’m guessing not. But vet thought he removed two testicles? But later, it was found the vet had only removed one, and there was another that had not been removed?

Yes, that is a very unusual circumstance![/QUOTE]

Only 1 testicle was descended, which we discussed w/the vet. Post surgery she said she got both of them but had not. After I found the 2nd testicle and confirmed w/the vet that it was a testicle I did ask if my dog could be a 3 nut wonder but she (other vet on the practice) laughed at that and said no, that the 2nd nut had been left behind and not removed.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7850902]
X-linked and autosomal are mutually exclusive, by definition.[/QUOTE]

You mean"X-linked" and “autosomal” mean the same thing? I know in several articles they stated “X-linked, autosomal recessive trait” and I quoted it as such. I’m certainly not a geneticist. In this case I’m just parroting what I read.

Is the phrase incorrect?