Recently spoke with someone concerning an older horse that travels hollow backed and neck inverted. They suggested that the horse be trained with a twisted snaffle. No flames please.
Tell me about the twisted wire snaffle. Horse has been ridden english and in many snaffle type bits but always smooth mouthed.
Evades the bit by holding the head high and opening the mouth.
I suspect the rider may have hands that are too heavy as well.
Please a thoughtfull discussion. Thank you.
A twisted snaffle is a more severe bit than the equivalent smooth (non-twisted) snaffle.
If the horse’s problem is that he evades the bit by holding his head high and opening his mouth, I cannot fathom why someone would suggest that the solution is to go to a harsher bit. I wouldn’t be taking any advice from that person. If anything, I would go in the other direction, to a milder bit.
Of course, I am required by COTH unwritten rule to suggest that you make sure the horse has no physical problems with teeth or saddle fit. :rolleyes:
A twisted wire snaffle isn’t as harsh as it sounds, in the right hands, of course.
Absolutely agree that it will not make a horse softer and responsive enough to put his head down. Have you tried a double jointed bits? I absolutely love french links or mouthpieces with the “beans” in the middle.
Slow twists are harsher than fine, most of the time. Try not to use either.
This isn’t a situation where I’d use a twisted wire, I would never put one in the hands of a rider who isn’t able to absolutely comprehend and ride with softness in their hands. I would lean towards something milder, and maybe try a properly adjusted running martingale.
To me, a twisted wire has two uses: as a signal bit (much like a spade bit, meant to be used on horses that do everything properly in a milder bit but are ready to ride even more off the seat with an even lighter rein) in a horse that isn’t ready or can’t go in a curb, or to fix an older horse that is properly trained but has developed a habit of leaning down onto the bit.
“Signal bit” is a term for a bit with inherent balance and action independent of the rider’s hands. Not really intended to be a term for “harsh bit used quietly”.
No snaffle has anything in common with a spade.
I would say, they need more training, horse and rider, not a different bit.
Ditto Bluey.
Thank you so much for the replies so far. I appreciate the input.
Sacred_Petra, I think you are getting nearer to what the original trainer (that I spoke to) was getting at, fixing an older horse that has bad habits. I will proceed with caution.
Interesting thread and thanks!
I would add that I had a horse with high head carriage and a hollow back that turned out to be a saddle fit issue. He just had no where else to go so hollowed out and lifted his head to avoid pain. Different saddle and pad configuration and he went much better!
But still interesting about bits!
More leg, less bit.
In my own opinion, I hate twisted wire; especially on snaffles. I feel that if I can’t accomplish having a soft-mouthed horse with a smooth mouthpiece of normal thickness (remember: a very thin smooth mouthpiece can be “harsh” too), then I’m doing something wrong as the rider.
On that same thought, a snaffle bit is not always the answer. I’ll use my horse Red as an example. When I bought him at the age of 6, he was ridden in a tie down and a twisted wire snaffle. :no: It would be obvious to say he had ZERO training to give to the bit and had horrible bad habits of fighting it. I did as best I could with him that first year and made some progress but not as much as I would have liked.
I took him to a reining trainer for 30 days for some help and she immediately put him in a correction bit. And it actually worked extremely well. Since I show western, I do primarily ride in a curb bit since I need to ride in a curb to show, but I can dang near ride my horse in anything. Heck, probably could get by with a string around his neck.
It’s taken a lot of time (I’ve had him 3 years now) but he very rarely ever throws his head or fights the bit anymore. It’s taken a long time to correct his bad habits.
But I still would avoid twisted wire. I just don’t find it necessary. Ever. IMO.
The horse in question just needs to be re-trained.
[QUOTE=beau159;7852214]
In my own opinion, I hate twisted wire; especially on snaffles. I feel that if I can’t accomplish having a soft-mouthed horse with a smooth mouthpiece of normal thickness (remember: a very thin smooth mouthpiece can be “harsh” too), then I’m doing something wrong as the rider.
On that same thought, a snaffle bit is not always the answer. I’ll use my horse Red as an example. When I bought him at the age of 6, he was ridden in a tie down and a twisted wire snaffle. :no: It would be obvious to say he had ZERO training to give to the bit and had horrible bad habits of fighting it. I did as best I could with him that first year and made some progress but not as much as I would have liked.
I took him to a reining trainer for 30 days for some help and she immediately put him in a correction bit. And it actually worked extremely well. Since I show western, I do primarily ride in a curb bit since I need to ride in a curb to show, but I can dang near ride my horse in anything. Heck, probably could get by with a string around his neck.
It’s taken a lot of time (I’ve had him 3 years now) but he very rarely ever throws his head or fights the bit anymore. It’s taken a long time to correct his bad habits.
But I still would avoid twisted wire. I just don’t find it necessary. Ever. IMO.
The horse in question just needs to be re-trained.[/QUOTE]
One important point to take from this story, some arena competitions is about concepts in training and it starts with very, very basics being correct.
Once you have those basics, then you can go on to train for all that other we do, the “tricks”, that is what I call some of that, like those reining movements, like stops and spins, because your horse is confirmed in these basics that permit it to build on them.
The same then applies to so much else we do with our western horses, so yes, once a horse has some of those basics installed, that learning to listen to the rider, to communicate and learn thru that to move properly, then you can add any other, reining, working cowhorse, WP, barrels, cutting, whatever you want.
It is funny to receive an older cutting trained horse that is still green, can cut great, but doesn’t know to listen to the rider when it comes to even the most basic, like which lead to start their lope and how, take half a circle trotting faster and faster to get a transition and down from that lope at times is an abrupt, bouncy stop.
Watching old warmup cutting arenas, you could see many horses warming up by loping circles forever, both ways on the same lead, the riders asleep up there and many didn’t even know the horse was careening around on whichever lead it happen to start, not on purpose counter cantering.
Why can they get by and be such great cutters that are half broke?
Because cutting they don’t need much else than cut well, learn to get in front of the cow the way it will get them the most points and less points off and for that, which lead they are on is immaterial.
Many trainers starting colts today use reining basics to start their colts, or send them to a reiner for some of that, as some cutting trainers are starting to do, or also barrel racers, for what I have been hearing for some years now.
Now, there are many trainers in many disciplines that already know that, not just reining, but there it is what those trainers have to do, they can’t get by later to cut or rope or whatever you do without that correct base, that is why I use them for an example.
Working cowhorse dry work is reining, but not generally expected to be to the finish reining is, more basic, just as dressage in three day event is not to the higher level that the higher dressage demands.
I think that CONCEPTS in what we do and why with horses are getting more generalized in our basic horse information out there and that will make all winners, the horses and their riders.
That is probably what is missing in this horse/rider combination, the basic concepts, that would permit it to work without the horse resisting as it is doing, always keeping in mind that nothing else is wrong, dental or saddle fit or other such problems.
It’s a “band-aid” bit. It attempts to replace real training.
Horses usually put their heads up when something ELSE is wrong (back, balance, emotional insecurity). Fix the cause, and you fix the effect. It sounds like the trainer is zeroing in on effect instead of cause.
If the horse is, indeed, putting it’s head up because of something related to its mouth, the last thing is do is put a harsher bit in it.
To the people who say it’s only harsh dif abused, I’d ask why one couldn’t train in a less potentially harsh bit? A good trainer shouldn’t have to rely on the threat of pain to produce a good result.
I don’t own one, would never own one and would be ashamed to be seen using one.
There is a reason the horse is going like this, as someone said above it was saddle fit.
The other cause - the horse will usually react one of two ways.
The first as you said is to raise their head and suck back, so there is no way they get hurt by the bit attached to those hands.
The second way is a horse that rounds and leans. The leaning on the reins stops the bit in those hands hurting their mouth.
A rider with good hands has to prove to them that the bit won’t hurt and you will have a different horse almost immediately.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;7851866]
More leg, less bit.[/QUOTE]
Agree. No bit is going to fix a basic training and riding problem
A twisted wire is intended to be used short term, to lighten a horse that has gotten a bit heavy in a smooth snaffle, western anyway, then go back to the bit asp that is legal to show in (smooth snaffle, if the horse is being shown in a snaffle-ie jr horse
This in no way means a horse that goes hollowed, on his forehand, head in the air, etc, but just a bit heavier, a degree that most non professionals would not even notice
yes, to the pain and saddle fit disclaimers, and if there is no problem there, learn feel in the hands and ride with more legs, giving when the horse gives. If you always hang onto the mouth, then the horse has no way of getting release,besides seeking it himself, getting behind the vertical, raising head and being resistive, etc
A twisted wire is certainly not a signal bit!
A curb, used correctly, is a signal bit, and various designs affect degree of signal (purchase to total shank length, loose jawed of fixed, angle of shanks )
In other words, when the reins are taken up, the curb strap comes into play, before there ever is bit contact, and a well trained horse will respond before that bit pressure comes into play
Any bit with snaffle (direct ) rein action, can’t provide a signal. That is why, in a good training program, on a western horse, one goes to a curb for added finesse, not control
Rule out physical of course. Foot issues, back problems and mouth problems.
If a clean bill of health ( make sure to X-ray front feet), I would try some different bits. Myler and Mikmar bits are often the best choice for picky horses.
Walking and jogging over ground poles, plus more leg/core, less hand will usually help.
Have a really good trainer try and see if horse is still hollow.
I also like sweet waters, California pleasure and low port correction bits but only when horse is well trained.
Does this horse move like this lunging? How about when using bosal or side pull?
The rider needs a total reeducation. Sure she can sit a horse, and get from A to B, but somewhere along the line she missed a whole lot in the beginning, end, and middle.
A twisted wire snaffle will compound the problem created by bad handed riding.
And, restarting this horse will be a project requiring skill and patience.
Bluey was much kinder, than I.
When I was a kid my barn had some horses in twisted wire snaffles.
Now that I am older and more experienced, I would say I can’t imagine using one ever again. I just don’t see them as being all that useful, and they do carry the risk of injury and desensitization.
A horse that is hollow and inverted is among other things afraid of the bit. It’s literally the last bit I would put on such a horse. The horse needs something soft and comfortable.
A girl I knew was riding a horse in a twisted wire snaffle, sigh she was also leaning forwards to go downhill and backwards to go uphill to build muscle amongst other things.
He became my horse. I took off the twisted wire snaffle and put on a normal snaffle jointed bit and stopped doing the things she was doing to build up muscle and just rode him instead.
He was never ridden in the twisted wire bit again and never needed it in the first place. It was the rider that was the problem not the horse.
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