Tennessee Walker Stifle Issues

[Dreamwalker2012]

I’ve got a 6-year-old Tennessee Walker. We have been in moderate English training for about a year and his fitness level would be considered quite good. He now has his second episode of stifle issues where his stifle on both hinds seems to partially lock and then release. Both times it happened after he was pushed in lessons as in asking for more collection etc. and then would slowly loose his balance in the following rides. He suddenly wobbles, walks like a crab, resists lots of aids and at times it feels like his hip collapses. The vet thinks we need to keep training as the more muscle he has built up, the better he can compensate for this. After his first episode, it took a month or so until we could do regular rides again. This time it seems much longer. We started getting better and then we actually stumbled and both fell, which didn’t help our confidence… He just seems wobbly and his hips feel spongy at times when riding. And I mostly walk him and not much more right now. He pulls the reins out of my hands and wants to stretch down a lot. Lunging was also recommended which I do a couple of times a week to keep his fitness level up. I just feel conflicted whether to back off or push him through as he seems so uncomfortable at times, yet all I hear recommended is to keep him going.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Is this quite normal for TWH or unusual? Will this go away with activity and training or does he have a weakness in that regard? Overall, no one around me has much experience with gaited horses and their anatomical differences.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

If he is stumbling to the point of falling over, you need to get another vet out and do a full work up on his hind end, I would imagine including x-rays. No, this isn’t normal for any breed of horse that I am aware of. I would stay on the ground in the mean time - hand walk, lunge, etc. just to be safe. I’m sorry your horse is having this issue and hope that a different vet will give you some answers.

[TMares]

Do you have a conformation photo you can share? I have some ideas, but I’d like to see how his body ties into his hind legs and how long his gaskins in…

[Guilherme]

This is not an uncommon issue in Walkers. You don’t note where you are. If you are in a place where Walkers are common, like the Southeast, I’d call your nearest vet. school clinic and make an appointment with them. They are likely to have extensive Walker experience.

Just exactly why you’re having this problem can differ from horse to horse so it’s good to have someone with breed-specific information and experience.

If you are not in an area where Walkers are common are you a member of FOSH, TWHBEA, or any other Walker organization? If so contact them and see what resources they might point you to in your area.

We had Walkers for almost 15 years and live in East TN. This is a not uncommon problem and in some lines, particularly some Big Lick show lines, is a very common issue. There are multiple treatment options once the problem is identified.

Good luck finding assistance.

G.

[beau159]

@Dreamwalker2012

He now has his second episode of stifle issues where his stifle on both hinds seems to partially lock and then release.

Lunging was also recommended which I do a couple of times a week to keep his fitness level up.

Who receomended that you lunge him? The vet? Small circles are TERRIBLE if your horse has a stifle problem; especially if your horse hasn’t “built up” his fitness to that level. And especially if that is the ONLY thing you are doing right now. That’s not helping him.

Small circles are one of the last things you do, after a lot of time spent stregthening the stifle with proper exercise.

@Dreamwalker2012

He suddenly wobbles, walks like a crab, resists lots of aids and at times it feels like his hip collapses.

Personally, it sounds like you may have more going on than stifles.

I would suggest getting a second opinion from a different vet, who is familiar with lameness in TWH’s.

I can’t speak specifically for TWH as I have never had one, but in general, “weak stifles” or “locking stifles” are more common in younger horses, like yours.

My Red never fully locked but he would “step in a hole” if I let him get strung out at the trot, and he started crossfiring on the backside of our barrel turns, when the stifle would “catch”. This was diagnosed when he was 7, and it did get better as he got older (he is now coming 13).

[TMares]

Agree with @beau159 - never ever lunge a horse with stifle issues.

Were he mine, absent any photos:

Get a good vet to examine his stifles and determine a plan of action. If you think about how complicated your own knees are, and realize a horse’s stifles are just as complicated if not more, you’ll appreciate how much you need a good plan of action.

The collapsing feeling is that stifle giving way at the point it should be holding his butt up and it can’t so you feel it fall away from you and he loses his balance.

Remedies are varied and they depend.

With that said:

Straight lines and let him reach, don’t hold him in a ‘frame’ of any sort other than asking/letting him use his butt
backing up in hand up very slight inclines can help with strength issues
Icing and cold hosing
steady walk work, not even flat walking, but real 1-2-3-4 marching in a good working walk
Square his hind toes for faster/easier breakover.

Anatomy Lesson:
https://equusmagazine.com/management/approach-stifle-injuries-15901

Loads of Detail that will be more useful once you have a good vet’s input.
https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-11proceedings-158.PDF

[Dreamwalker2012]

Oh, everything I wrote in response disappeared when i added the pictures… I’m new to posting here and obviously not very good at it…lol

[4LeafCloverFarm]

Well, he’s a handsome boy. Reminds me of the “old type” TWH’s I am familiar with from the 70’s and 80’s that our family friends had as trail/pleasure horses.

[Dreamwalker2012]

@Guilherme

This is not an uncommon issue in Walkers. You don’t note where you are. If you are in a place where Walkers are common, like the Southeast, I’d call your nearest vet. school clinic and make an appointment with them. They are likely to have extensive Walker experience.

Just exactly why you’re having this problem can differ from horse to horse so it’s good to have someone with breed-specific information and experience.

If you are not in an area where Walkers are common are you a member of FOSH, TWHBEA, or any other Walker organization? If so contact them and see what resources they might point you to in your area.

We had Walkers for almost 15 years and live in East TN. This is a not uncommon problem and in some lines, particularly some Big Lick show lines, is a very common issue. There are multiple treatment options once the problem is identified.

Good luck finding assistance.

G.

I’m definitely not in a Walker area at all, I’m in BC, Canada. Very few people have any experience with gaited horses around me. Our vet seemed great at diagnosing the issue and mentioned Walkers are more prone to this as they are somewhat double jointed and their flexibility can be to their detriment. I don’t know much about that…

[wildlifer]

What a lovely boy. Having had a horse with stifle issues, I agree with others who say no circles. No longeing. Hind end issues can be rather like chasing phantoms & the stifle is the most complex joint in the horse’s body, so don’t be afraid to ask for second opinions if you want to seek out an ortho specialist, which would be my first priority especially if the horse has fallen.

Things that will help & can be done at low speeds so as not to create more damage or unbalance the horse: walking straight lines on rolling terrain, correct & balanced up/down transitions (walk/trot [or gait] /walk), backing up a slight incline (in hand & just a few steps at a time, this is difficult).

Gaited horses do move their legs in a different rhythm when they gait, so it helps if the vet has extensive experience with them to more quickly recognize what is out of whack. But they are still horses & have all the same parts & for a really good vet with good eyes & quality diagnostics, it doesn’t matter what the breed is.

When a horse is so clearly saying he is uncomfortable, you are right to listen. Especially with a young horse in training – keep pushing & all he will learn is that work is scary & painful & something to be avoided at all costs. Worse, you both could end up hurt. Follow your gut & I hope you are able to find some good answers for your boy. There are a lot more treatment options out there than there used to be, but you do have to identify the root cause before you can make progress.

[Guilherme]

@Dreamwalker2012

I’m definitely not in a Walker area at all, I’m in BC, Canada. Very few people have any experience with gaited horses around me. Our vet seemed great at diagnosing the issue and mentioned Walkers are more prone to this as they are somewhat double jointed and their flexibility can be to their detriment. I don’t know much about that…

Walkers are NOT “double jointed” but are very loosely jointed. It’s a necessity for the way they move.

Is there a vet school near you where you could get a better evaluation? Many in the “trotting” world still consider a soft gait in any horse a form of “lameness.” That view is flat, dead wrong but there it is.

G.

[Dreamwalker2012]

Thanks everyone! Lots of great advice for me to work with.

Finding a vet with gaited horse experience here will be close to impossible. However, my farrier is experienced with gaited horses and recommended getting him on a very tight schedule. He has “rockers” on his hind feet now and they seem to help improve his balance almost immediately.
We are mostly working him in the walk with short little trot attempts on straight lines. Everything is a bit more challenging right now as we have snow and ice, so indoor is the only option. Not even the little outdoor incline we have is safe to use right now, so slippery.
He is such a sweet boy and so easy to work with, so the reminder to not push him and maybe associate pain or discomfort with training resonated for sure!
If anyone has any more ideas and experience, keep it coming!

[TMares]

A lameness exam on a TWH is no different than on a trotter. Flexion tests are flexion tests. Locking stifles also present at the walk.

and does he even trot well? Is he inclined to trot?

we can’t guess what he actually needs, lacking a definitive diagnosis. Tight stifles aren’t lax stifles, guessing at an approach could hurt him.

[beau159]

@TMares

Flexion tests are flexion tests. Locking stifles also present at the walk.

.

Yup!!

When my was diagnosed with catchy stifles (his never locked) my vet had me hold my hand on his stifle and feel while the assistant walked him. I could feel it “catch” myself.

[Dreamwalker2012]

@TMares

A lameness exam on a TWH is no different than on a trotter. Flexion tests are flexion tests. Locking stifles also present at the walk.

and does he even trot well? Is he inclined to trot?

we can’t guess what he actually needs, lacking a definitive diagnosis. Tight stifles aren’t lax stifles, guessing at an approach could hurt him.

Yes, I hear what you’re saying but I think there’s a misunderstanding here. He has been examined by my vet (who I trust) and diagnosed and I am not looking for a diagnosis here from anyone. I was hoping to hear about experiences with how their horses healed and what helped to build up their strength again and especially how it is different for Tennessee Walkers with their anatomical differences and flexibility.
For most of the time, he walks and trots well…until he doesn’t. So it comes and goes in episodes. But he trots clear and willingly until then.

[Guilherme]

Is he trotting or gaiting? Walkers can, and do, trot but it is a very rare thing. They are much more likely to pace than trot. That is a whole other area of exploration. If he is performing his signature gait then you probably should drop the word “trot” from you vocabulary when describing that motion.

If your vet has diagnosed him as “double jointed” then I’d seriously question that. As noted stifle issues can arise in any horse but they are VERY common in some Walker lines.

Here are a couple of resources that seem OK. There’s a lot more out there but some of it is bunk while some is not.

https://wagwalking.com/horse/condition/stifle-injuries

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/3-steps-to-stronger-stifles

BEFORE you start doing “physical therapy” on your horse ensure you have a diagnosis of the problem. The use PT to address the problem, as appropriate.

G.

[TMares]

@Dreamwalker2012

Yes, I hear what you’re saying but I think there’s a misunderstanding here. He has been examined by my vet (who I trust) and diagnosed and I am not looking for a diagnosis here from anyone. I was hoping to hear about experiences with how their horses healed and what helped to build up their strength again and especially how it is different for Tennessee Walkers with their anatomical differences and flexibility.
For most of the time, he walks and trots well…until he doesn’t. So it comes and goes in episodes. But he trots clear and willingly until then.

Then what is that diagnosis? If you’ve shared that and I missed it, my apologies.

Personally, I completely changed the way one walker dealt with overly tight stifles that inhibited him from cantering at all and in time I made that canter into a beautiful thing, he looks like a warmblood. Conversely, I’ve rehabbed another walker who was very sore on his right stifle and a little sore on the other. He is the stereotypical super loose and floppy horse who would collapse behind in gait or even just flat walking and his canter challenges are entirely different from the first horse.

Point being, the path for treating the two horses was completely different.

[Guilherme]

@TMares

Then what is that diagnosis? If you’ve shared that and I missed it, my apologies.

Personally, I completely changed the way one walker dealt with overly tight stifles that inhibited him from cantering at all and in time I made that canter into a beautiful thing, he looks like a warmblood. Conversely, I’ve rehabbed another walker who was very sore on his right stifle and a little sore on the other. He is the stereotypical super loose and floppy horse who would collapse behind in gait or even just flat walking and his canter challenges are entirely different from the first horse.

Point being, the path for treating the two horses was completely different.

Amen. AMEN, AMEN!!!

G.

[Dreamwalker2012]

@Guilherme

Is he trotting or gaiting? Walkers can, and do, trot but it is a very rare thing. They are much more likely to pace than trot. That is a whole other area of exploration. If he is performing his signature gait then you probably should drop the word “trot” from you vocabulary when describing that motion.

If your vet has diagnosed him as “double jointed” then I’d seriously question that. As noted stifle issues can arise in any horse but they are VERY common in some Walker lines.

Here are a couple of resources that seem OK. There’s a lot more out there but some of it is bunk while some is not.

https://wagwalking.com/horse/condition/stifle-injuries

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/3-steps-to-stronger-stifles

BEFORE you start doing “physical therapy” on your horse ensure you have a diagnosis of the problem. The use PT to address the problem, as appropriate.

G.

Thank you, I will look into all that!

I think our our vet used the term “double jointed” to describe there’s a difference but didn’t mean it literally. However, I will be getting in touch with her and investigate further, also will ask her more specifics on the actual diagnosis, she mentioned a loose patella but the stifle and SI joint seemed normal when palpated. It didn’t seem important to me in the moment to ask more clarification as I didn’t think I needed to know more than her recommended course of action.

He actually trots a real trot and only goes into certain gaits when uncomfortable or unbalanced. His canter is not a true canter (extra beat), except after jumping or pole work (but we have not cantered or done anything like jumping in the last few months of course).

[Guilherme]

@Dreamwalker2012

Thank you, I will look into all that!

I think our our vet used the term “double jointed” to describe there’s a difference but didn’t mean it literally. However, I will be getting in touch with her and investigate further, also will ask her more specifics on the actual diagnosis, she mentioned a loose patella but the stifle and SI joint seemed normal when palpated. It didn’t seem important to me in the moment to ask more clarification as I didn’t think I needed to know more than her recommended course of action.

He actually trots a real trot and only goes into certain gaits when uncomfortable or unbalanced. His canter is not a true canter (extra beat), except after jumping or pole work (but we have not cantered or done anything like jumping in the last few months of course).

Ah, I think you have a serious problem if the horse prefers the trot and only gaits under adverse conditions. You’ve likely got more going on that a stifle issue. I had Walkers for more than a dozen years before we got our Marchadors. What you are describing is seriously abnormal. Many gaited horses will trot at liberty but gait nicely under saddle; if the under saddle gait is as you describe something is seriously amiss.

I know that there are not very many Walker owners in your part of the world, but it might be beneficial to get in touch with FOSH, TWHBEA, and any other Walker group you can think of and see if there are any experienced owners in your area.

G.