Big Lick = Big Yuck! Let the natural gaits be enjoyed!!!
[QUOTE=cordial;6542510]
Then you have not seen or ridden a padded horse. It is not for the novice amateur…way more skill involved then you could imagin. I consider most of your opinions preposterous…just saying.
Just because we have a padded horse DOES NOT mean that we believe in soring or any of the other things that SOME, NOT ALL, do to big licks. I know that you can’t wrap your brain around that concept, that not all people that own padded horses do this stuff![/QUOTE]
BINGO ! I cant and wont wrap my brain around your supposition that it is just fine and dandy to put a horse up on stacks. Creator made the horse to carry approx 60% of his body weight on the front end. That is the dynamics of how a horse is balanced. You Big Lickers stack them up and move that weight to the back end - i wonder what % of weight a BL horse carries behind just standing still even without a rider. Then you add the chains and climb aboard and make that horse move in a way that was never intended. Totally manufactured and grotesque.
We do agree on one thing - finding each other preposterous.
Someone mentioned that the BL is all about the money with stud fees etc…sale of foals…which would be normal. However no one has mentioned how long the BL stallions/mares live AFTER their career. One lady posted her horse, she believed, had been tortured by BL and she was unable to correct it 20 years after. I did look on line and some stallions appear to be in their late teens.
Of course soring is illegal and wrong. I am just wondering however as to long term effects and if it shortens the lifespan…or if they must live in pain for twenty years or so or if they are able to have a normal life…or as normal as any horse can have with a stall and paddock
There is a lot of breeding stock in all breeds that is not sound, but have good blood lines and are pasture-sound enough to keep those bloodlines going. I would think any answers you would get on that here in this thread would be more anecdotal than statistical.
I do notice that most tbreds dont seem to race much beyond their 4 yr old yr but instead get sent to the breeding shed. Sbreds seem to hold up better and could race longer but if they are good bred enough and have done well in the stakes and Grand Circuit races, the lure of the money from breeding can force early retirements. Best to stand a stallion in his prime.
Ive been to the big sbred farms in KY and out east and seen some of the great stallions turned out and most looked sound as a dollar.
Are you going to find any BL breeders that will admit their horses are shot but still breedable ? I guess a tour of their barns and seeing the horses moving free in a paddock would give you some answers.
Just wanted to add that when Monty Roberts was duped into helping the stacked folks, one of the barns used him in a voice over to promote their great horse care. In the video were their breeders romping in the paddocks.
Not a sound one among them.
And in the longer unedited version of the “how to shoe the stacked horse” named Command and Control it shows clips of him loose in the field in distorted flip flop keg shoes. Again, he moves unsound. Part of the problem is the distorted duck like front feet he has form all the years of “good” shoeing.
Now stacked folks would say how wonderful he looked and that we just do not understand gaited horse. What stacked fans do not see is that they have come to buy all manner of twisted explanations of why he moves like that so they can ride the encumbered stacked beast.
I have seen 400 lb women hoisted up on these stacked horses. (Trust me when I say the women were hoisted and weighed 400 lbs). They do not ride the horse. He managed to keep them on - possibly out of fear of falling over with them - I do not know. But In all the time I have seen stacked horses - they move as if they know their next step could be a fall. In fact most unplanned moves DO result in pretty significant stumbles for the horse and rider. So they learn not to do that when the stacks are on.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6543261]
Just wanted to add that when Monty Roberts was duped into helping the stacked folks, one of the barns used him in a voice over to promote their great horse care. In the video were their breeders romping in the paddocks.
Not a sound one among them.
And in the longer unedited version of the “how to shoe the stacked horse” named Command and Control it shows clips of him loose in the field in distorted flip flop keg shoes. Again, he moves unsound. Part of the problem is the distorted duck like front feet he has form all the years of “good” shoeing.
Now stacked folks would say how wonderful he looked and that we just do not understand gaited horse. What stacked fans do not see is that they have come to buy all manner of twisted explanations of why he moves like that so they can ride the encumbered stacked beast.
I have seen 400 lb women hoisted up on these stacked horses. (Trust me when I say the women were hoisted and weighed 400 lbs). They do not ride the horse. He managed to keep them on - possibly out of fear of falling over with them - I do not know. But In all the time I have seen stacked horses - they move as if they know their next step could be a fall. In fact most unplanned moves DO result in pretty significant stumbles for the horse and rider. So they learn not to do that when the stacks are on.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen those big mamas riding TWH’s too. Disgusting.
That article is what needs to be sent to every Sen/Rep on the Hill.
sent to the judge,put on every website.
keep this out front.
ive seen the big butted broads,hoisted up on a poor BL horse its back drops it has to stand straddle legged to keep its self standing.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6542664]
Someone mentioned that the BL is all about the money with stud fees etc…sale of foals…which would be normal. However no one has mentioned how long the BL stallions/mares live AFTER their career. One lady posted her horse, she believed, had been tortured by BL and she was unable to correct it 20 years after. I did look on line and some stallions appear to be in their late teens.
Of course soring is illegal and wrong. I am just wondering however as to long term effects and if it shortens the lifespan…or if they must live in pain for twenty years or so or if they are able to have a normal life…or as normal as any horse can have with a stall and paddock[/QUOTE]
There are no “hard” numbers on the future of the stacked horse. This is because the process begins with a yearling in a “colt package” at 12 months, under saddle in full stacks at 18 months (so they can compete as two year olds), and then they hit their “prime” in 4-8 year old time. If you started out with 100 yearlings we don’t know how many would make it to that mature age. Nor is there any hard data on what happens after 8 years. The elite mares and stallions do OK (or as OK as they can) but what happens to non-elite?
Hard data could be obtained, but those who oppose the process are shut out from collection, professionals (like a university) would need a bunch of money, and people who do it have little incentive to cooperate because they KNOW what the answer would be (and it wouldn’t be favorable to them). Keep in mind that Jackie McConnell is the tip of a very large iceberg.
So you’ll not see any reliable data any time soon.
If you go to Walker show featuring the BL horses you’ll see lots of entries in the younger classes but a distinct lack of numbers in the “aged” classes.
A few years back I did some research on equine morbidity and mortality insurance and found that show Walkers were rated the same as high level eventers. A major cause of death was chemical colic. Lots of different lamenesses were noted under the morbidity coverage.
From personal experience with former BL horses I’ve seen lots of minor, and not so minor, injuries directly related to the BL way of going. If you want to get an idea of the really heavy stress that the stacks put on the horse’s body look at a BL horse from the back, going away. It waddles like a duck. If it had a yellow bill, feathers, and webbed feet that would not be a bad thing; but it doesn’t. And it is.
The BL boosters don’t like the exposition of such thoughts, but there it is.
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6543533]
There are no “hard” numbers on the future of the stacked horse. This is because the process begins with a yearling in a “colt package” at 12 months, under saddle in full stacks at 18 months (so they can compete as two year olds), and then they hit their “prime” in 4-8 year old time. If you started out with 100 yearlings we don’t know how many would make it to that mature age. Nor is there any hard data on what happens after 8 years. The elite mares and stallions do OK (or as OK as they can) but what happens to non-elite?
Hard data could be obtained, but those who oppose the process are shut out from collection, professionals (like a university) would need a bunch of money, and people who do it have little incentive to cooperate because they KNOW what the answer would be (and it wouldn’t be favorable to them). Keep in mind that Jackie McConnell is the tip of a very large iceberg.
So you’ll not see any reliable data any time soon.
If you go to Walker show featuring the BL horses you’ll see lots of entries in the younger classes but a distinct lack of numbers in the “aged” classes.
A few years back I did some research on equine morbidity and mortality insurance and found that show Walkers were rated the same as high level eventers. A major cause of death was chemical colic. Lots of different lamenesses were noted under the morbidity coverage.
From personal experience with former BL horses I’ve seen lots of minor, and not so minor, injuries directly related to the BL way of going. If you want to get an idea of the really heavy stress that the stacks put on the horse’s body look at a BL horse from the back, going away. It waddles like a duck. If it had a yellow bill, feathers, and webbed feet that would not be a bad thing; but it doesn’t. And it is.
The BL boosters don’t like the exposition of such thoughts, but there it is.
G.[/QUOTE]
it tru a farm some 20+miles down the way does just that small pads,dog collar chain and they are lead around or just put in a round pen.if they begin to have that little duck waddle,and lift the front.this is done until the horse is two. .folks who have bought two yr olds from them find they stress colic easy and have hoof problems.one had a 4% rotation of the coffin bone at 2.5 yrs.
just saying this practice of BL does alot of damage to the TWH.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6543533]
There are no “hard” numbers on the future of the stacked horse. This is because the process begins with a yearling in a “colt package” at 12 months, under saddle in full stacks at 18 months (so they can compete as two year olds), and then they hit their “prime” in 4-8 year old time. If you started out with 100 yearlings we don’t know how many would make it to that mature age. Nor is there any hard data on what happens after 8 years. The elite mares and stallions do OK (or as OK as they can) but what happens to non-elite?
Hard data could be obtained, but those who oppose the process are shut out from collection, professionals (like a university) would need a bunch of money, and people who do it have little incentive to cooperate because they KNOW what the answer would be (and it wouldn’t be favorable to them). Keep in mind that Jackie McConnell is the tip of a very large iceberg.
So you’ll not see any reliable data any time soon.
If you go to Walker show featuring the BL horses you’ll see lots of entries in the younger classes but a distinct lack of numbers in the “aged” classes.
A few years back I did some research on equine morbidity and mortality insurance and found that show Walkers were rated the same as high level eventers. A major cause of death was chemical colic. Lots of different lamenesses were noted under the morbidity coverage.
From personal experience with former BL horses I’ve seen lots of minor, and not so minor, injuries directly related to the BL way of going. If you want to get an idea of the really heavy stress that the stacks put on the horse’s body look at a BL horse from the back, going away. It waddles like a duck. If it had a yellow bill, feathers, and webbed feet that would not be a bad thing; but it doesn’t. And it is.
The BL boosters don’t like the exposition of such thoughts, but there it is.
G.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your thoughful response.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6542602]
BINGO ! I cant and wont wrap my brain around your supposition that it is just fine and dandy to put a horse up on stacks. Creator made the horse to carry approx 60% of his body weight on the front end. That is the dynamics of how a horse is balanced. You Big Lickers stack them up and move that weight to the back end - i wonder what % of weight a BL horse carries behind just standing still even without a rider. Then you add the chains and climb aboard and make that horse move in a way that was never intended. Totally manufactured and grotesque.
We do agree on one thing - finding each other preposterous.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have to agree with you…finding each other preposterous, but you my friend ,who thinks you know so much about BL’s, are incorrect on so many levels.
But trying to agrue in the defense of the padded horse is like trying to reason with a room full of people with memory loss. Have a nice day!
I’m sorry but I just don’t see where there is ANY. defense of “the padded horse.”
[QUOTE=cordial;6543813]
Yes, I have to agree with you…finding each other preposterous, but you my friend ,who thinks you know so much about BL’s, are incorrect on so many levels.
But trying to agrue in the defense of the padded horse is like trying to reason with a room full of people with memory loss. Have a nice day![/QUOTE]
Well i guess you told me ! And dont refer to me as a friend please. I own a gaited runwalking horse and know enough about horses in general to recognize crazy when i see it. So what if i am not in on all the intricacies of BL. See no need to sell my soul to get sooooooooo “educated”. And our memories are long - many in this thread have been against BL for decades.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6543854]
Well i guess you told me ! And dont refer to me as a friend please. I own a gaited runwalking horse and know enough about horses in general to recognize crazy when i see it. So what if i am not in on all the intricacies of BL. See no need to sell my soul to get sooooooooo “educated”. And our memories are long - many in this thread have been against BL for decades.[/QUOTE]
Well, my un-friend, how do you explain to me about the the harm that the “stacks” do to a padded horse, when we own a soon to be 22 year old padded horses still going strong and still in the show ring. My memory is long also, and I have NEVER disagreed that there are trainers that do vile stuff to some padded horses (and all trainers of ALL breeds, for that matter), but to paint all padded horses and owners with the same brush is unfair and unrealistic, but you will never agree to that, so lets just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Have a nice day!
The base of the Soring issue begins with the Stacks and chains.with out stacks and pkages there would be NO need to sore.if the so called performance class was gone along with the WGC as its know today.Soring would be Gone.
shakes head at cordial
[QUOTE=cordial;6543878]
Well, my un-friend, how do you explain to me about the the harm that the “stacks” do to a padded horse, when we own a soon to be 22 year old padded horses still going strong and still in the show ring. My memory is long also, and I have NEVER disagreed that there are trainers that do vile stuff to some padded horses (and all trainers of ALL breeds, for that matter), but to paint all padded horses and owners with the same brush is unfair and unrealistic, but you will never agree to that, so lets just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Have a nice day![/QUOTE]
I agree with you regarding the pads. They extend the useage life of many horses that would otherwise be disposed of…theraputic pads and corrective pads do not cause soreness, infact the are a remedy for it.
Having shown Arabs and Saddlebreds and some with or without pads…I have never noticed a difference.
I have a 19 year old mare here (ASB) who was shown extensively with pads and she has never had a lame day in her life. Pads did assist my stallion who “acquired” problems when shown as a two year old…
We must be careful that we do not become so feverant that we remove training or theraputic tools from the hands of everyone.
Come on Fairfax you have watched and contributed to this thread long enough to know we are not talking about just pads. You know we are referring to STACKS of pads. When cordial says “padded” in reference to her/his performance horse you know darn well she/he is talking stacks. You know this discussion is not about therapeutic or corrective pads. Nor is it even about pads of a reasonable height. No need to muddy up the issue.
