Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

Morning;

Many may not remember when prayers were taken out of schools in 1963.

I don’t think there are many today that will say it didn’t not have an profound and measurable effect on our country.

Today we are faced with another situation that if the majority does not speak up, the other side wins.

There will be no time in the near foreseeable future which we can get this close to shutting down the terrible things done to these horse.

The Lickers are right now amassing allot of support to keep things the way they are.

All you have to do is make a letter up and email it to your State’s Representative.

Ain’t asking for no money, or service, just write a email. your vote (letter) will go along ways to ending it all right here and now.

Judge Sandy Mattice told the newspapers that he received thousands of emails and letters, so we know you are a measurable force.

Do this one more time for the horse please…

Here are the email addresses of every lawmaker from every state, find yours and write them please The bill is: H.R. 6388

http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

Myself and other horses so thank you Whinnnnny!

CWO

We are on it !

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6559791]
Morning;

Many may not remember when prayers were taken out of schools in 1963.

I don’t think there are many today that will say it didn’t not have an profound and measurable effect on our country.

Today we are faced with another situation that if the majority does not speak up, the other side wins.

There will be no time in the near foreseeable future which we can get this close to shutting down the terrible things done to these horse.

The Lickers are right now amassing allot of support to keep things the way they are.

All you have to do is make a letter up and email it to your State’s Representative.

Ain’t asking for no money, or service, just write a email. your vote (letter) will go along ways to ending it all right here and now.

Judge Sandy Mattice told the newspapers that he received thousands of emails and letters, so we know you are a measurable force.

Do this one more time for the horse please…

Here are the email addresses of every lawmaker from every state, find yours and write them please The bill is: H.R. 6388

http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

Myself and other horses so thank you Whinnnnny!

CWO[/QUOTE]

Done CWO!!!

What nice timing ! Gonna buy one for myself (and to loan out) and one for the local library ! This is a true story.

"Ivory Pal’s future was bleak. The trainers had tried all the “traditional” Tennessee Walking Horse training techniques - the whips. the padded shoes. Nothing worked with this young horse, not even when his rider angrily hit his head with a whip to get his attention. Try as they might, the trainers could not get Ivory Pal to comply. The palomino colt had simply quit - given up. He became a show horse reject!

That is until one glorious day, when everything changed in his life and in the life of his new compassionate owner Rafael Valle.

Read the wonderful heart-warming story in this brand new captivating book of 104 pages with over 30 colored photographs by author Cindy McCauley,
“Ivory Pal - Born To Fly Higher”.

http://ivorypalbook.com/index.html

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6559488]
As the proposed amendment to the current law reads, in part:

6 ‘’(1) The term ‘action device’ means any boot,
7 collar, chain, roller, or other device that encircles or
8 is placed upon the lower extremity of the leg of a
9 horse in such a manner that it can—
10 ‘’(A) rotate around the leg or slide up and
11 down the leg, so as to cause friction; or
12 ‘’(B) strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock
13 joint, or pastern of the horse.’’;

This would include outlawing purely protective bell boots. I take it that TWH do not overreach and clip themselves at any time when gaiting so need never wear protective boots on a show grounds?

I can’t say the same for many people warming up horses of other breeds in other disciplines - Dressage horses often are booted from coronet to knee in front.
Horses that rack instead of run-walk wear protective boots that touch the coronet band so they are to risk injury?

I suppose I don’t understand why making a poorly enforced, selectively enforced and apparently non-enforced law more restrictive and generalizing in ways that could negatively affect those who don’t sore horses is a better choice than putting teeth into enforcing the existing legislation.

Saying “you oughtn’t do ABC (fill in the blank) because if you don’t we will maybe slap your wrist and tell you further that you oughtn’t do D”
Is not nearly the deterrent that “Doing ABC will result in everyone connected to the sore horse beiing fined/ eliminated/ excluded from showing any horse for X months, years or finally permanently”

Perhaps I am wrong, but new laws are as easily not-enforceable as old ones.

If the horse is sore, does the method of creating soreness make a difference? Shouldn’t all soring, no matter what new and horrific method is employed be equally actionable?

Why pick on boots?

I have experienced people thinking passing laws will stop bad behavior. And working hard to pass laws that are then applied randomly just as the earlier law was.

Seriously, enforcing laws works better than making more of them.

I do hope the plan to end soring works, although I don’t think it will end the BL look, if that is the real desire.

And I won’t be happy if I have a horse that needs boots for protection and a letter-of-the-law person finds fault with that.[/QUOTE]

I believe that the bell boots in question are weighted bell boots. These are not therapeutic or protective.

In dressage shows, you are right, horses warm up in polo wraps, sport boots, bell boots, whatever. But when they enter the ring, all that stuff has to come off. If the horse cannot compete in a class without being wrapped then it doesn’t need to be competing. Also, horse are not permitted to warmup in side reins or draw reins. This does not mean people don’t use them at home, plenty do, but at a show they are not allowed in warmup or in classes. At the regional championships, a trainer is not allowed to warm up a horse for a competitor. All of this levels the playing field and makes sure that competitors can ride and show there horses without assistance or devices. The TW people can still load up the horse with training devices at home, but they should have to take it all off at a show, including the platform shoes, and let the true gaits shine through. This keeps it fair and doesn’t give the sorers and the cheaters an unfair advantage.

[QUOTE=Renae;6559778]
Things have changed since the '80s. Nearly all Arabian exhibitors use a pad all the time, and with Saddlebreds we freely use pads when there is a saddle fit issue that is best addressed with a pad. Gel pads were not widely used in the '80s and Tacky Tack pads did not exist. All saddle seat saddles made these days have memory or high impact foam panels, and you can even get a model built on a carbon fiber tree. The big innovation in the '80s was the adjustable stirrups bar, which is standard on all saddle seat saddles now.

Road Horse classes have been limited to registered Standardbreds since the '90s.

I apologize, you are not working on the basis of no experience or first hand information, but on 30 year old information. You still don’t seem to realize that using degrading language towards trotting saddle seat folk and making statements such as ban all action devices (instead of ban action devices in the show ring, which is what the AVMA is saying and what we already do) does not attract us to want to support your methods and efforts.[/QUOTE]

This group is just desperate to keep a thread going. They have little to no knowledge of Arabs or Saddlebreds and I have no knowledge of TWH’s.

Strange…Arab and ASB owners are able to diffentiate…we understand the principle of soring and how it is done. We also understand that FOR THE TWH, due to its history, the owners are going to over react…however you are correct…the more they try and generalize laws that will impact other breeds, the less support they will have…

Even Roy quit writing about it…Celebration is now last years news…

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6560076]
This group is just desperate to keep a thread going. They have little to no knowledge of Arabs or Saddlebreds and I have no knowledge of TWH’s.

Strange…Arab and ASB owners are able to diffentiate…we understand the principle of soring and how it is done. We also understand that FOR THE TWH, due to its history, the owners are going to over react…however you are correct…the more they try and generalize laws that will impact other breeds, the less support they will have…

Even Roy quit writing about it…Celebration is now last years news…[/QUOTE]

We are not desperate to keep this thread going, we INTEND to keep it going. Do you think Roy is done ? Dont hold your breath. Arabs and saddlebreds are not my breed of choice but i do think they are beautiful and i do like riding an upheaded horse. I think a pinto mare with unknown breeding i had for twenty years was a saddlebred or so i was told by the Pinto Assoc inspectors. I decided not to hardship register her because im just a trailrider. To imply that a person is less of a horseperson because they have not specialized in a particular breed is selfserving and narrowminded on your part Fairfax. Get a life.

Roy has quit writing about it Fairfax? ROFL! We’ll see! What goes on your barn to make you so defensive? It might behoove you to be quiet and lay low. Besides, you admit you know nothing about TWH.

[QUOTE=Renae;6559778]
Things have changed since the '80s. Nearly all Arabian exhibitors use a pad all the time, and with Saddlebreds we freely use pads when there is a saddle fit issue that is best addressed with a pad. Gel pads were not widely used in the '80s and Tacky Tack pads did not exist. All saddle seat saddles made these days have memory or high impact foam panels, and you can even get a model built on a carbon fiber tree. The big innovation in the '80s was the adjustable stirrups bar, which is standard on all saddle seat saddles now.

Road Horse classes have been limited to registered Standardbreds since the '90s.

I apologize, you are not working on the basis of no experience or first hand information, but on 30 year old information. You still don’t seem to realize that using degrading language towards trotting saddle seat folk and making statements such as ban all action devices (instead of ban action devices in the show ring, which is what the AVMA is saying and what we already do) does not attract us to want to support your methods and efforts.[/QUOTE]

I have to say Renae I have not in any way tired to degrade any breed. I just simply and vehemently have disagreed with Fairfax on quite a few issues regarding the saddlebred’s need for devices. And unlike him I do not kid myself about the benefit or importance of a good skilled farrier in that arena. Not sure if you looked at the pic of my ASB, but I put him up partly as an example of what a shoe can do to that foot flight path that no training, stretchies, rollers etc etc would do.

And since being away from the exclusive saddlebred arena, I now better understand some of the other approaches to riding and using a horse. And I understand some of what people did dislike in them (ventroflexion, trappy movement etc). But better than that I can also now and then see true brilliance like I never could before in some of those saddlebreds.

“Roundy round” is an affectionate not derogatory term that just about everyone recognizes as a “class on the rail.” Which brings to mind something I would love to see: Fuego and Totilas on the rail in the same class with the organ keeping time. It would be a blast. LOL :smiley:

Unlike Fairfax, I feel there is immeasurable value and broad perspective that comes with an unfettered discussion on a message board. SPecially on topics like this it need not be only the professional who comments. It should also be the enthusiast, the trail rider as well as the person who has been there and done that that brings in perspective and light. Most often these non pros are the buyers who fund such endeavors. I think we would all agree they should have a say and the courtesy of being heard.

It is JMO but derogatory remarks toward individuals who participate on this important topic or any topic is more “talking out your ass” than say someone like me who “was there” in the 80’s and remembers when.

Keeping to the subject matter, the horse, the foot, the legislative effort is much more productive and informative than personal pot shot stuff.

ALso important is current information on what is going on now.

As to this thread dragging out - well lordy no! There is just as keen an interest in a good outcome here as there is in anything horse. Just remember the parties involved have repeatedly shown a lack of self regulation and or judicious humane use of these devices for far too many years. It is like we are dealing with the same mentality of folks that brought on the HPA spot light long long long ago. SO the updates on the effort or new inquiries in this matter are well worth the board space.

[QUOTE=walknsound;6560109]
Roy has quit writing about it Fairfax? ROFL! We’ll see! What goes on your barn to make you so defensive? It might behoove you to be quiet and lay low. Besides, you admit you know nothing about TWH.[/QUOTE]

What goes on in my barn is open to anyone. No need to lay low or hide.

I just do not like a group telling me, or other breeders/trainers what training tools and techniques we can use and assuming we are training with a protocol of abuse

I am sure Roy will have more to say…gosh…he will have to work his anti Republican message into something and why not use horses…

Having been the editor for an International Equine magazine during the 80’s and 90’s (The International Horses Mouth) I can assure you his editor will only keep relevant and hot buttons in print. Of course he will cover the sentencing but as the public move towards the election, Thanksgiving, Christmas…your cause will fly way way south.

Er, excuse me, aren’t bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway…

[QUOTE=Niennor;6560765]
Er, excuse me, aren’t bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway…[/QUOTE]

Aren’t pads and wraps also considered protective??

:(Welcome to TWH land.

[QUOTE=Niennor;6560765]
Er, excuse me, aren’t bell boots meant to prevent striking or friction, rather than CAUSE it? Protective bell boots anyway…[/QUOTE]

They can prevent striking but i beleive they cause friction.

My experience with bell boots with harness horses is that they were used for protection and /or influencing gait. There were soft gummy brown pull-ons and heavier weight white ones and even heavier weight stiffer white ribbed ones. I have no experience with the velcro ones - they were not used back in the day because they were not as secure. The buckle ones were not used either. They werent balanced enough. Often the weight of a bell boot was enough to influence gait without having to go to a heavier shoe or toe weight, side weights, etc. The name of the game was to alter the gait with the least possible weight.

We would trim the bell boots to fit the horse. If left too long, they would slide up and down more, causing irritation and soreness. Left too long, a horse can also step on them and trip. Bell boots can also protect knees, if the horse brushes his knees, but not bad enough to wear knee boots. The depth of the knee boot can make a horse who is coming close actually brush his knee(boots).

In between warmup trips, the bell boots were flipped up and the pastern sponged off and toweled dry. This kept track debris and the actual boot from irritating the heel. Some horses had especially senstive skin and you had to keep an eye on the heels.

So my experience has been that bell boots were both protective and gait altering. Is there room for abuse with bell boots ? There sure could be if the pasterns were sensitive for any reason. If the boots were too big, they would slop around and cause irritation. If they fit right, they are kind of hard to pull on and off. The brown rubber were the most flexible and easiest to pull on. If they pulled on too easy, they were probably a size too big. The white ones were knuckle busters, hard to get on and off. I found this quote this morning:

“Most horses do not mind wearing bell boots and suffer no adverse effects when they are used properly. However, even a correctly fitted bell boot may chafe and cause discomfort to a horse if the material the boot is made of is exceedingly stiff or if the horse has especially sensitive skin”.

All of my experience has been with pull-ons which would obviously not be the type used on Big Lick horses. How would you ever pull a boot on over the clown shoes ?

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6560795]
Aren’t pads and wraps also considered protective??

:(Welcome to TWH land.[/QUOTE]

yes, BL trainers have mastered alternate uses havent they ?

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6560705]
What goes on in my barn is open to anyone. No need to lay low or hide.

I just do not like a group telling me, or other breeders/trainers what training tools and techniques we can use and assuming we are training with a protocol of abuse

I am sure Roy will have more to say…gosh…he will have to work his anti Republican message into something and why not use horses…

Having been the editor for an International Equine magazine during the 80’s and 90’s (The International Horses Mouth) I can assure you his editor will only keep relevant and hot buttons in print. Of course he will cover the sentencing but as the public move towards the election, Thanksgiving, Christmas…your cause will fly way way south.[/QUOTE]

Time will tell Fairfax. BTW, hold your breath!

Here is another way to send a message to Congress that you support H.R. 6388. The lickers are out in force. Go even up the playing field.

https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/hr6388

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6561450]
Here is another way to send a message to Congress that you support H.R. 6388. The lickers are out in force. Go even up the playing field.

https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/hr6388[/QUOTE]

Done!

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6560835]
They can prevent striking but i beleive they cause friction.

My experience with bell boots with harness horses is that they were used for protection and /or influencing gait. There were soft gummy brown pull-ons and heavier weight white ones and even heavier weight stiffer white ribbed ones. I have no experience with the velcro ones - they were not used back in the day because they were not as secure. The buckle ones were not used either. They werent balanced enough. Often the weight of a bell boot was enough to influence gait without having to go to a heavier shoe or toe weight, side weights, etc. The name of the game was to alter the gait with the least possible weight.

We would trim the bell boots to fit the horse. If left too long, they would slide up and down more, causing irritation and soreness. Left too long, a horse can also step on them and trip. Bell boots can also protect knees, if the horse brushes his knees, but not bad enough to wear knee boots. The depth of the knee boot can make a horse who is coming close actually brush his knee(boots).

In between warmup trips, the bell boots were flipped up and the pastern sponged off and toweled dry. This kept track debris and the actual boot from irritating the heel. Some horses had especially senstive skin and you had to keep an eye on the heels.

So my experience has been that bell boots were both protective and gait altering. Is there room for abuse with bell boots ? There sure could be if the pasterns were sensitive for any reason. If the boots were too big, they would slop around and cause irritation. If they fit right, they are kind of hard to pull on and off. The brown rubber were the most flexible and easiest to pull on. If they pulled on too easy, they were probably a size too big. The white ones were knuckle busters, hard to get on and off. I found this quote this morning:

“Most horses do not mind wearing bell boots and suffer no adverse effects when they are used properly. However, even a correctly fitted bell boot may chafe and cause discomfort to a horse if the material the boot is made of is exceedingly stiff or if the horse has especially sensitive skin”.

All of my experience has been with pull-ons which would obviously not be the type used on Big Lick horses. How would you ever pull a boot on over the clown shoes ?[/QUOTE]

OK, first of all, what kind of bell boots are used in TWH’s that can influence gaits? :eek: Because the only kind of bell boots i know don’t weigh more than a pair of riding gloves.
Also, I don’t see how incorrectly fitted bell boots can cause chaffing. i can see how incorrectly fitted tendon boots or even polo wraps can cause problems, but bell boots? I happen to have a pair that are just a little too big for my horse. When I ordered full size i didn’t think by full they meant over 17h horses (wouldn’t that be an XL??) so I ended up with a lot of extra velcro. I used a little trick to get them to fit, but when they spin sometimes the horse will step on the longer side, making small tears. So far the only damage I have seen is to the actual bell boots. No irritation at all caused by the boots, and i have a very white grey horse, who seems to be sensitive to oh, just about everything, so I would notice for sure if there was some irritation in that area.

Now, if you add some extra weight to them, i can see how they might alter the horse’s movement. I still don’t see how they can cause friction. To my experience, stepping on the boots will cause the horse to damage the boots and not the heels. Am i missing something here? :confused:

I dont know what they use, presumably the ones with buckle or velcro closure which will probably weigh more than the basic brown gum rubbers boots which i believe weigh about 3 ounces. Every ounce you put on a horse, every degree of angle, every say 1/8" of toe will change the path that a hoof travels. You start with a normal balanced hoof and tweak it as little as you can. When balancing up a trotter you use as little weight as possible. You need a longer front toe on a trotter than a pacer, but you try to keep it as short as you can because long toes are stressful to the legs. If you choose to use toe weights, ONE OUNCE can make a difference how that hoof travels.

Ive never had the need to use bell boots on a riding horse, but my understanding is that if you leave them too long (hitting the ground), a back hoof can step on them, trapping the boot and when the horse goes to move that front leg - it is restricted. Can get ugly. Leaving them too long will also make them move up and down more. If your horse is punching holes in them along the bottom, if i were you i would trim them.

Remember that in the case of BL walking horses, the heel area may already be a bit tender from whatever is used to prep that horse - chains, rollers, etc. Here is a pair from National Bridle who caters to TWHs. They dont mess around. You can add additional 8 ounces or more. Good grief.

http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-2316.htm

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6562001]
I dont know what they use, presumably the ones with buckle or velcro closure which will probably weigh more than the basic brown gum rubbers boots which i believe weigh about 3 ounces. Every ounce you put on a horse, every degree of angle, every say 1/8" of toe will change the path that a hoof travels. You start with a normal balanced hoof and tweak it as little as you can. When balancing up a trotter you use as little weight as possible. You need a longer front toe on a trotter than a pacer, but you try to keep it as short as you can because long toes are stressful to the legs. If you choose to use toe weights, ONE OUNCE can make a difference how that hoof travels.

Ive never had the need to use bell boots on a riding horse, but my understanding is that if you leave them too long (hitting the ground), a back hoof can step on them, trapping the boot and when the horse goes to move that front leg - it is restricted. Can get ugly. Leaving them too long will also make them move up and down more. If your horse is punching holes in them along the bottom, if i were you i would trim them.

Remember that in the case of BL walking horses, the heel area may already be a bit tender from whatever is used to prep that horse - chains, rollers, etc. Here is a pair from National Bridle who caters to TWHs. They dont mess around. You can add additional 8 ounces or more. Good grief.

http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-2316.htm[/QUOTE]

You haven’t used them. Everything you state is supposition. THIS is the problem I have with many posts here.

A comparison of a toe clip to a bell boot is one heck of a stretch

words such as “will probably” or the heel MAY be tender or your change of topic to chain weights after a direct question was asked about bell boots does nothint to support your cause

Thank you for your post however… This is exactly why any law changes suggested by you or your group must be “vetted” by those who actually have experience rather than: may, could should etc