now that could work,if you need a current coggins,a 6month/1 yr health cert than why not a cert of transportation.name of owner should be on the coggins and the health cert.but that permission to transport,just could hangum.
what ya wantta bet the BL owners would scream bloody murder.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6566887]
“There has been much rumor among the DQP’s and Government inspectors that they are keeping their “eyes” on a few other breeds that “fail” the Horse Protection Act.”
This was Cordial’s earlier post.
So you don’t want to give detail, OK.
Vague threats toward ‘other breeds’ is nothing beyond pot-stirring.
++
On another post regarding Stewarding; why isn’t this cruelty under existing state and federal laws (I suspect it is) and then the question becomes -Why not enforce the law?
More legislating pays the politicians; it doesn’t help the animals.[/QUOTE]
As you all know my husband and I show all divisions of the Tenn. Walkers, and in doing so, we are around and in the presense of the D.Q.P.'s and the Government Vets. Just listening to their talk is very interesting. These people are not stupid…they are very aware of the abuses in other breeds, and talk quite openly about it. I am not making vague threats, Bald Stockings, as you are accusing me of. You would be surprised at the knowledge that they have…and yes, they can and will address it in time. Their main goal they are addressing is the problems in the Tenn. Walking breed…which might surprise you, I am in favor of… but these guys are not uninformed as to other “problems”. I can’t give you any more details then that. If I hear any more details at our next breed show, I will be sure and post them to you, so you won’t think me a “pot-stirrer”. Is that a deal???
[QUOTE=aarpaso;6567476]
now that could work,if you need a current coggins,a 6month/1 yr health cert than why not a cert of transportation.name of owner should be on the coggins and the health cert.but that permission to transport,just could hangum.
what ya wantta bet the BL owners would scream bloody murder.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn’t be a problem for my horses! We go over the state line all the time…not a problem!
The rumor is that Kentucky is very strict about health certificates, so i have never tried hauling there without a 30 day health certificate and i go there at least once a year. I have never been pulled over and asked to produce it but i have heard that they will quarantine a horse without one until the proper paperwork is obtained. Has anyone heard of someone being detained because of no paperwork ?
[QUOTE=cordial;6568130]
As you all know my husband and I show all divisions of the Tenn. Walkers, and in doing so, we are around and in the presense of the D.Q.P.'s and the Government Vets. Just listening to their talk is very interesting. These people are not stupid…they are very aware of the abuses in other breeds, and talk quite openly about it. I am not making vague threats, Bald Stockings, as you are accusing me of. You would be surprised at the knowledge that they have…and yes, they can and will address it in time. Their main goal they are addressing is the problems in the Tenn. Walking breed…which might surprise you, I am in favor of… but these guys are not uninformed as to other “problems”. I can’t give you any more details then that. If I hear any more details at our next breed show, I will be sure and post them to you, so you won’t think me a “pot-stirrer”. Is that a deal???[/QUOTE]
I would be very pleased if you did. (not being sarcastic, simply honest)
What is your take on the ‘no weighted shoes’ that ‘alter gait’ clause in the proposed revised regulations to the HPA?
Will you have your vet declare all variable shoeing as therapeutic on the plantation and lite shods?
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6568356]
I would be very pleased if you did. (not being sarcastic, simply honest)
What is your take on the ‘no weighted shoes’ that ‘alter gait’ clause in the proposed revised regulations to the HPA?
Will you have your vet declare all variable shoeing as therapeutic on the plantation and lite shods?[/QUOTE]
I don’t exactly understand your question about weighted shoes? Are you asking me if I think weighted shoes alter the gait, or do I believe that it should be in the new regs for the HPA??
My vets have no problem with the shoes on my flat shod or park horse. My husband is the one that owns and rides the padded horse, who is by the way 21 years of age and my flat-shod horse is 22 years of age, and both still going strong in the show ring. I will ask my vets the next time I see them what their opinion is of the padded-up shoes. I am sure that they will give me an honest answer.
In my post 2582 above, I copied directly from the HPA proposed revised statutes comparison provided in a link (on page 129 I think).
(repeated here)
1824 Unlawful Acts
(13) The use of a weighted shoe, pad, wedge, hoof
band, or other device or material at a horse show, horse
exhibition, or horse sale or action that—
(A) is placed on, inserted in, or attached to any
limb of a Tennessee Walking, a Racking, or a
Spotted Saddle horse;
(B) is constructed to artificially alter the gait of
such a horse; and
© is not strictly protective or therapeutic in
nature.
So my above post was that I am opposed to making weighted shoes, a pad, a wedge UNLAWFUL. It is my contention that ANY shoe will alter the gait of a horse, and good luck getting a weighted shoes are therapeutic vs. race plates ruling.
This IS part of the proposed rule changes - how do you think this will affect the plantation and lite shod classes, many of which would have UNLAWFUL shoeing per the new proposals?
Your vet is not the one who will inspect based on the revised statute if it comes to pass. A licensed inspector will have the final say.
I doubt a vet who works with padded horses would give you an honest opinion about something he makes money from.
[QUOTE=cordial;6568888]
I don’t exactly understand your question about weighted shoes? Are you asking me if I think weighted shoes alter the gait, or do I believe that it should be in the new regs for the HPA??
My vets have no problem with the shoes on my flat shod or park horse. My husband is the one that owns and rides the padded horse, who is by the way 21 years of age and my flat-shod horse is 22 years of age, and both still going strong in the show ring. I will ask my vets the next time I see them what their opinion is of the padded-up shoes. I am sure that they will give me an honest answer.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Malda;6569310]
I doubt a vet who works with padded horses would give you an honest opinion about something he makes money from.[/QUOTE]
Good point, and so true!
[QUOTE=walknsound;6569392]
Good point, and so true![/QUOTE]
Quite frankly, one of the vets that we deal with, is a specialists in equine legs. He has never discussed this subject with us, but the next time we are a his facility I will come out and ask him. His main concern is the health of the horse regardless of his shoeing, and will not have a problem telling you to change the shoeing program. But I will tell you this…he is very impressed with the care, the health and general condition of our horses since they are definitely "senior citizens. Ages 21 and 22…they are the ones that he sees from time to time.
the key words is deal with,he is still bein paid for his service.
if i had padded/stacked would i be willing to take my senior horses to an independent vet for full leg shoulder and hoof exam,exrays, MRI the works to be compared to a flat shod or barefoot horse of the same age same breed maybe even same bloodlines is the Real Question.
what say you to this ?
What your particular vet, cordial, has to say about your particular horses does not matter much in the big scheme of things. How many young horses have lost their lives to chemical colic or broken down or just refused to accept the treatment ? How can we count them ? How many went thru sales with no papers ? How many are kept going through hock injections and gallons of adequan pumped thru them ?
You participate in an industry rife with abuse and you help perpetuate it because you see no wrong if it is “done right”. Cordial there are hordes of people who disagree, among them those who post in this thread. Dont know about those who just view it and dont put thier 2 cents worth in. Most people do not like Big Lick. Even nonhorse people can see the expression in the horses eyes, the sweat and a ridiculous way of going. They see horses that if asked to do a figure eight would end in in a tangled mess on the ground. There has been talk about removing the canter from the BL class because it is so obviously atrocious and damaging.
The AVMA and AAEP have called for a ban of action devices and performance packages in the training and showing of TWHs. Now why would they do that ? Why would they alienate themselves to a group of clients ? There must be pretty powerful evidence of the harm caused for them to take that stand.
D Baldstockings - trying to get clarification of the term weighted shoes, also.
[QUOTE=cordial;6569879]
Quite frankly, one of the vets that we deal with, is a specialists in equine legs. He has never discussed this subject with us, but the next time we are a his facility I will come out and ask him. His main concern is the health of the horse regardless of his shoeing, and will not have a problem telling you to change the shoeing program. But I will tell you this…he is very impressed with the care, the health and general condition of our horses since they are definitely "senior citizens. Ages 21 and 22…they are the ones that he sees from time to time.[/QUOTE]
Trust me this vet is so well-known and is so busy that he would have no problem telling us what he thinks. I will ask him and tell you honestly what he says
The no weighted shoes could be a problem for more than just TWH.
What if someone decided that a keg shoe was too heavy and it had to be made from aluminum, or that a bar shoe was too heavy. Or, any shoes at all?
I don’t mind the weighted bell boots being gone, they rub anyway. Am I understanding it correctly that wraps are going to be prohibited too?
We don’t show in them obviously, but are they going to be outlawed too?
Also, I really don’t like the fact that they specifically singled out TWH, Racking and Spotted Saddle Horses. There are other gaited breeds that fall under this, and are not listed.
I so apologize for being so tardy in posting the rest of the story, I don’t think many of you will believe my excuse, but I am gonna try
I have been a leader in war, schools, and in nursing with hiring and firning powers.
Yes, you monitor all aspects of those you work with, but it does not take long to know who you can trust, to do their jobs, handle situations and are leadership material…
This is how I see COTH…I can walk away from y’all for a while, you are self motivated, self sustaining, and self guided…I don’t have to babysit y’all like I do other groups, FB, lsit , I mean this in all sincerity and hope I haven’t bent anyone’s nose with my explanation…
Okay I will catch ya up with what I have been doing…
Jackie’s Sentencing Part 2
Judge Mattice said it was the prerogative of the court to gather as much info without limitations of the source to help them make an informed decision on sentencing.
He questioned the prosecutor Steve Neff and asked them why he tied his hands behind his back by having the plea bargain? He thought he should just have left it up to the court to search his own consciousness and to render a sentence.
Now this is just my observation, of the proceedings and the judge’s comments and attitude and tone.
The judge expressed great indignation, controlled outrage, concern, and attitude, about this whole case.
He brought up the previous, I believe he said seven cases that have been tried and heard there in Chattanooga, stating that things were changing and it’s a new day in the breed, of Tennessee Walking Horses, people are being caught and punished for abusing horses, for laws that have been on the books for many years and are now just been made active by the Department of Justice and he was not happy about the plea bargains.
He mentioned several times about the hundreds and hundreds of letters that he had received he even mentioned the videotapes that I sent him “Walkin On Broken Glass,” he again stated that it was the court prerogative to use anything and everything available to him which he called “Advancing his objective to impose a just sentence."
He said he had many e-mails and letters from both sides, some he said were just angry, from people but he did learn a lot more about the issues from these outside sources.
He said that the government and the defense made these pre sentence plea bargains, and asked why should he have to accept the plea agreement with these constraints that gives him no guidelines?
As I said my opinion was he already knew and had made up his mind of exactly what he was going to, but he was playing to the thousands of people with whom had voiced their opinions that Jackie should do jail time it seemed to me that was attempting to shift the greater weight of responsibility of not throwing the book at him off his shoulders and placed it on the prosecutor and defense for their plea-bargaining and the inadequate laws giving him no guidelines or specific direction on what he could do.
Again, my opinion was that he was bluffing that he really wanted to do something harsh to Jackie because of the public outcry, but he really knew what he was committed to do This is just my impression.
He stated that six or was it seven people had already pled to misdemeanors, in that Barney Davis was sentenced to jail for one year and $4000. Mays did four months in jail and he released him with time served.
Prosecutor Neff stated he believes the pre plea agreement upholds the law as it is now written and it does provide adequate objectives.
Judge Mattice asked again. Does it help him make a decision for an just and appropriate sentence? And again why should he accept it?
And then he started to tell what his reservations were; he said the plea agreement only has one component and probation was the only option for the judge. He did say that, let me see if I get this right, that the HPA allowed him to impose 0 to 5 years of incarceration, but that was for violation of HPA, soring, which was included in the other 51 charges, and all they bought him was for transporting sore horses and falsifying paperwork, no jail time on those.
Again he asked prosecutor “why don’t you leave it to him to judge and not tie, His hands?” There were no guidelines for imprisonment.
He said you could call these white-collar offenses, the defense got up and start talking about Mr. McConnell’s health, how he had to pay $1200 a month for health insurance, and $300-$400 a month for medication. The impression I got from this was the defense was real concern that judge Mattice was looking for some kind of way to put him in prison.
The judge, slapped that down by saying that he has sentenced sicker people to prison and that he would receive adequate medical care in prison. Again it was looking more and more like the judge was going to be heavy-handed in his sentencing of Jackie.
He commented to the defendant’s attorneys that he was aware of Jackie’s finances and asked about the horse trailer that was seized by the state from him and asked; what was the value of that trailer?
The response was $24,000. Then he went into something that I quite didn’t follow and he starts speaking about the horse owners being notified to come and get the horses or if the state was going to seize those horses?
He did make a comment that he was sure that these owners knew what was going on with the horses and whether they should be allowed to keep those horses.
Jackie’s Sentencing Part 3
The judge then said that; ”The court of public opinion moves more quickly than a court of law." He said what was left for him as the judge was that he could impose any lawful fine special assessment fee from $0-$250,000.
I know this is jumping all over the place but from my notes that’s what this hearing was like it was all over the place back and forth, then prosecutor Neff said that the fine of $250,000 just and big enough he said “He made his money from violating federal laws, financial penalty has to have big teeth"
He also felt that the defendant should have five years of probation. This opened up the door for another round of rousing commentaries.
Prosecutor Neff said there was no monitoring of Jackie while he was on federal suspension 2006 to 2011. He was violating even while on suspension. The judge said he believes that Jackie will never do it again, in which prosecutor Neff stated that not only he, but the judge himself has also seen people who they believed would never commit a crime again return time and time again back to the court for violating their probation.
Prosecutor Neff stated he believed that should the five year probation should be violated they will really be able to throw the book at him.
The judge stated that he has been completely stripped by not only the USDA but by the celebration and TWHBEA that he no longer has any connection to horse showing in his future, he kind of felt, five years probation was not necessary with that in place.
Jackie’s attorney, Mr. Greenholtz made a comment that Jackie had made substantial assistance to the government, to which the judge asked prosecutor Neff if the defendant had? Prosecutor Neff said “No he hasn’t.” That really caught Mr. Greenholtz off guard.
The judge asked why is he the big fish?
Prosecutor Neff responded that he is a Hall of Famer, past trainer of the year and is a big enough representative to be made an example for everybody else. He said there’s a difference between education and deterrence. And that the message should be a respect for the law.
Now, this next statement by the prosecution was very interesting to me, he said if the judge was to accept this plea bargain Jackie would now be an admitted felon, and he still had a state court charges pending and would have absolutely no defense in those proceedings as he admitted to the charges.
So, in my thinking, He admitted to transporting sore horses and perpetrating fraudulent official records.
It was at this point, the judge said that he was going to go back into his chambers and come back with a decision on his sentencing.
During this break, I spoke with some reporters, including Mr. Roy Exum and we were all kind of speculating on what we thought might happen and the question that seem to be on everyone’s lips was should he do jail time?
I turned around to see a familiar face that was a blast from the past. It was very apropos that this tall cool, drink of water should be there. Old-timers will know who I’m talking about. They worked the room like they had never left the arena, both of us went over and shook Jackie’s hand and I said to him. “Good luck” he said. “Thank you” graciously. I told him I have nothing personal against him. But what he had done is what I wanted to see punished. He said “I understand."
Here is my commentary on why I felt this way;
These men are important to somebody in this world. As evidenced by the number of people who traveled hundreds of miles to be there to show support for these defendants
Somebody loves these men and has already forgiven them.
Several people were there to see punishment and justice am I not right?
What are we really punishing, these men? Who they are? Or what they represent?
I’ve given this a lot of thought, and I’ve come up with this conclusion, if we are punishing the men, then what they’ve done, is still hanging out there.
However, if we are to punish their acts and their behavior, THAT~~~ is something that we can recognize, and measure in the future to deal with appropriately.
Well, isn’t this what we want to see happen, that these unwanted behaviors to stop?
Then this is what we need to focus our attention on ~~~ the behavior, the illegal acts.
These men soon will be out of our memory. However, we will never forget the indelible images of their behavior and illegal acts.
This is the message we want to send to anyone who is thinking about continuing to abuse horses. That message is ~~~
we recognize the behavior and illegal acts and it is that which we vigorously punish and if you happen to be one that is committing it, You go down with the crime.
I think the prosecutors in the state trial will read over the transcripts of this trial and will fill in any gaps or holes that were exposed here, meaning they will have more leverage, especially with the new Tennessee laws on abuse and soring to impact the rest of the industry that emanates from Shelbyville, Tennessee.
What a federal court was unable to do, the state court will. I have no doubt about that.
So if you are upset because he was not thrown in federal prison, it ain’t over yet.
I think all of middle Tennessee and surrounding states that hold big lick shows are trembling at the thought of being discovered and disclosed what they do to these horses and all the back room corruption that Jackie McConnell has been privy to.
The judge returned to the bench:, called order in the court, called the defendant and his attorneys to the well, he pronounced;
Three years’ probation, $75,000 to be paid to the District Court immediately, there was some discussion from the defendant’s attorneys that he needed to liquidate property in order to get that money. So the judge said he had nine months to pay. 300 hours community service to the USDA, and forfeiture of his 40 foot horse trailer.
Prologue
I had an epiphany on courthouse steps, as I stood and listened to Keith Dane, and Sen. Tydings respond to TV and news reporters.
My job of keeping these issues alive, upfront, and on people’s minds and hearts, was coming to an end for me.
For years, I have advocated the abolishment of pads and chains from the feet of the Tennessee walking horse, was told by people on all sides “That’ll never happen” I’ve tried to compromise, only to have those attempts rejected.
This Humane Society has taken up the gauntlet from the 1986 CNN Investigative Report and breathed, a fresh new perspective on this decades old issue. Now that there is pending legislation to do just that, abolish pads and chains, HSUS is better equipped to see to it’s timely end.
I’m tired.
I would now like to enjoy being in the company of my horses knowing that other horses are not suffering.
My nature and invocation is that I am a care-giver, I care about all things given to us by God, and He has laid this on my heart for many years to be a steward, ombudsman and voice for the horse.
I think now I may be able to rest soon from the task.
I have just ONE more thing to accomplish.
Our breed will not falter because pads and chains are eliminated, quite the contrary, it will grow and flourish to numbers that has never been seen before.
What was done here today, is a victory for all horses. But as humans we must not rejoice at the calamity of these men, they were however, instrumental in bringing us here today.
“Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the LORD will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him. Proverbs 24:17-18
As a breed we can come together like no other time before, those that are in power from the pro Big Lick states, must open up their ranks to breeders, exhibitors and owners from around the world and accept their opinions as being valid and also in the best interest of the breed.
Like many great eras of our past, the Big Lick era has come to its end. Believe it!
I’m proud to be a part of yet another great movement to remove the hard, unforgiving and cruel chains of oppression and bondage from another of God’s creatures.
Instead of finger-pointing in trying to cast blame, we should unfold those fingers and extend our hand towards anyone who loves this horse.
In Closing;
The Bible speaks of the return of Christ in part like this:
(Revelation 19:11-14 KJV
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
In my simple way of thinking, I just do not see Christ returning on a Big Lick horse that is padded and chained.
Thank you and blessings all of us.
The Preacher
Been over arguing with a bunch of versatility people on their FB page of which they did not want to hear about, talk about or know about anything political regarding the current affairs of the TWH.
I was summarily unfriended.
But something I pointed out to them that I have been thinking about all day.
For those that watched the videos, there was a brother, Jeff Dockerey on the tape, his famous appearance was him sitting in a chair with a baseball cap on saying “ I ain’t going to jail for no Jackie!”
I watched this man, and talked to him after his sentence, and as a Black man I must tell ya what I know.
First, I did not create this scenario, nor did I have anything knowledge or involvement with the way things played out here, but I can bear witness to what I know as a Black man who went through Civil rights Era.
52 year old Jeffrey Dockerey is a dark, life worn man about 5’5’, his face is well worn with hard labor and little medical care, he has next to no teeth in his mouth, very soft spoken and obviously very subservient in the presence of white people.
He is attended to by his black attorney, an elderly mother looking woman and a brother. Other than myself, we were the only people of color in that court that I could see.
He is the first to be called into the court well, he has his Sunday best on, a pair of clean, but worn jeans, shirt, humble shoes.
Immediately my heart started to race, as I had a real-time premonition that I KNEW this man! Just as quickly I realized he was the very presence of many men I have known in my life from childhood. Men, I sat at their sides and listened to their stories and testimonies of growing up in the South as a Black man, their families, the experiences both bad and sad to belly laughs.
I could tell Jeff was not an educated man, just guessing he may have had a few years if any in elementary school. The lady, with a well-worn blue summer dress showed years of hard labor, raising probably a large family just eking by.
I thought of my Mama Becky and the video tape interview she gave me of her life not long before she passed on to Glory, I gotta go dig that out and watch it, I haven’t seen it since I made it.
A myriad of emotions, images, smells, sounds bounced in and out of my head as I tried to pay attention to the proceedings, some made me wanna smile and some, cry.
POINTS OF THE CASE
Jeff stated he had worked for Jackie McConnell for over 30 nonstop years. Meaning he was 24 when he became a stable groom, for those who are not familiar with the industry, that would be the person that handles the horses, with cleaning them, grooming, feeding, exercising, and cleaning their stalls, very hard manual labor and at all times dangerous as you are working with a over 1000lbs horse, many a groom has been hurt by horses, I’m pretty confident some may have been lamed for life or even died.
On the video you will see him several times handling horses from dragging them out of the stall to holding them while they were being sored, or stewarded.
30 years, Jeff did not look like he has been on any medical plans, and definitely no dental plan or care…I wondered how many teeth he had before he went to work for Jackie.
I hate to see what Jeff did, but I could not help think of the pressure to do what they were told to do., or be fired. I felt for the brother.
Now here ol’ Massa Jackie, always telling Jeff how lucky he was to be working for him and how much he liked him and took care of him and his family. The court records said Jackie had assets in excess of $2.2 million dollars.
In 2006 Jackie got busted big time for soring and was sentenced by the USDA to 5 years’ federal probation, meaning;
~He cannot train or handle anybody’s horse except his own .
~He could not transport any horses anywhere,
~He could not assist in the training or handling of any horse, and
~If he went to a show he could only sit in the bleachers as a spectator.
~This was to last for 5 years unsupervised, unmonitored.
So what does this man do? He takes his trusty ol’ stable groom of 30 years good ol’ boy Jeff and now makes him a trainer (On paper) he pays the $250.00 trainer’s license fee, vouches for him as character and personal reference.
THEN! He continues training horses, loads them up on a trailer and transport them using the other defendant Joseph Abernathy, who is a white horse shoer by trade, he’s probably a few more grades educated than Jeff, has him transport horses that he (Abernathy) knows are sore and takes them to the horse shows for Jackie.
Then he has them enter the horses under Jeff’s name as trainer and then sits back and watches them perform, no loss of revenue from the customers and everybody is happy…
Do I really need to go into the injustices here? Can you draw your own conclusion without my help?
Now here both these boys stand before the court ~~~their lives changed forever……
I hope the word gets out to the other brothers out there under similar situations, but then what do they do for income to support their families? They use allot of Mexicans too, but as shameful as it is for me to say it, it is true, they pack light, and are gone, gone, gone, before someone could hang up a phone.
This part is hard for me to say, but it was important that these two boys got busted with Jackie, important for the cause, for the message is;
From the lowliest stable groom, hardest working horse shoer to a Hall of Fame Big Trainer…Black and White~~~~you all need to beware….we know now how to stack you up, how to gut your whole operation and in the state of Tennessee make you a felon and put you in jail. I know there’s a brother in there named “skillet” that’ll be dying to meet cha!
Lickers have in the past accused me of scare tactics……Boooooo! BOOOOO!
You better believe there is a boogeyman and as in Jackie’s case , it could also be wearing a skirt.
Gnight all
The Preacher
This will really open your eyes, educate you, arm you and make you an authority of whate “Really” happened
The who, what, when ,and how of Jackie’s crimes and dismiss
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/horse/mcconnel_arrest_warrants.pdf
Busy with what? Other big lick horses? How involved is he with TWH “performance” horses?
[QUOTE=cordial;6570419]
Trust me this vet is so well-known and is so busy that he would have no problem telling us what he thinks. I will ask him and tell you honestly what he says[/QUOTE]
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